Neurodiversity with Dr. Mandy Wintink

[00:00:00] there’s just so much benefit, um, to knowing how you’re, I mean, this is what my, you know, my career has been based on this and it’s like to understand ourself gives us so much power. It helps us pick the right jobs, pick the right relationships, get out when we need to.

manage our own emotions, our own stress.​

I hadn’t given much thought to neurodiversity in the past, and only ever had a pretty surface level understanding of it. But I’ve really made up for this lack, especially in the last few months.

I’ve recently discovered that my daughter is autistic, which to be honest, when it was first brought up as a possibility, I did not think was an option at all. But autism presents differently in girls, and there’s a gender bias in the literature and diagnostics and general society, which has meant that a lot of girls go undiagnosed for years, which leads me to myself.

Her diagnosis came at a time when I was already experiencing what felt like autistic burnout, although I didn’t know what to call it at the time. And autism is genetic, and I can see a lot of parallels now between my daughter’s behaviors and my own growing up it’s still early days, , and I still have more questions than answers. But, it’s wild to be faced with yet another thing I didn’t know about myself, and wish I knew a lot sooner.

Today on Dear Queer, we’re talking about neurodiversity, and we have a [00:02:00] guest who is a dear friend of mine, Mandy Wintink. Welcome.

Thank you. Thank you. Hi.

 So Mandy, I actually know Mandy through my Ultimate Frisbee Life, which um, We played together for years, uh, which is, which is always neat when we have like a personal connection with someone, but then when we can combine like a professional stuff too is really, is really amazing.

So, um, we’re happy to have you on here today as an expert. Can you give us a little bio or a little intro about yourself?

Yeah, for sure. Um, first of all, thank you. Thank you for having me on and thank you for that. Uh, like the intro that you did. I mean, I listened to the podcast and I always hear them, but to hear it from you as you’re saying it, like was really emotional.

Like I really felt something. Um, so I definitely want to talk about that, uh, from my personal experience as well, having gone through something similar. But, uh, just to back up a bit. So I have my backgrounds in psychology and neuroscience. I have a dual PhD in both of those disciplines and I do a lot of different things in that capacity.

I teach at like university level courses. I also teach and coach through my own company. Um, and, uh. And I, and some of the stuff that I do is training and development work around neurodiversity around, you know, diversity and inclusion work, um, within gender and neurodiversity, because I find, uh, both of these topics, something that I really want to help the world understand better as well as myself, you know, as I do all of this work, it’s always an opportunity for me to understand myself.

Uh, a little bit better as well. So that’s sort of the high level overview of me

and actually I didn’t. So I didn’t realize the overlap between gender diversity and neurodiversity is something that, like, is prevalent in conversations about it? Is this something that we’re learning more about? Like, [00:04:00] what do you know?

Yeah, that’s a good question. Um, I also should back up and just like give a little bit of preface in terms of like my identity. So I, I do identify as queer, um, identify as, um, bisexual and gender queer, non binary. I don’t really know. I’m sort of trying to figure that out. Um, but I definitely, feel queer and love it.

Since I’ve like accepted that. Um, and I also recently went through an assessment for ADHD, which is under the umbrella of neurodiversity. And I’ll, I’ll, maybe I’ll describe that a little

Um, so neurodiversity is a interesting. term. It started actually way back in the like late nineties by a woman named Judy Singer, and she was doing her honors thesis.

I think it was sociology, and she I don’t remember if she had personal experience with it. I think maybe her Children did. And she just wanted to reframe it. Basically she, you know, saw, and this was autism. So I should say that this is specifically about autism and re framing it in terms of understanding some of the positive attributes associated with it.

And, you know, as, uh, Someone in psychology, I know very well that we pathologize pretty much everything we can, and we have a, you know, pretty terrible history having done that, and so autism has been , pathologized, and it’s in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, along with things like ADHD and, and pretty much everything else that we talk about in terms of mental illnesses and, you know, And even things you probably didn’t even know.

Um, so it originally was a term that was used more politically. Um, she was doing a sort of a honors thesis, so not like an in depth research that would be published. She published a book about it, but not academic papers as far as I know, at the time. And then it was picked up in a bit of the mainstream as like a political term.

So even today, it’s not, um, considered like a [00:06:00] scientific term to describe the autism and what’s been sort of brought under that umbrella, including ADHD and learning disabilities and a few other things. So it’s kind of expanded, um, over the years to include some of these other things because other people with those, uh, diagnoses are saying, you know what, there’s positive things about me or clinicians are saying there’s positive attributes for all of these.

And so neurodiversity is really just there to represent that these brains are part of a natural diversity that exists. world. Um, we tend to cater to sort of the neurotypicals, but there’s all of this diversity that exists. And we could not only research those because it is sort of coming into the research realm.

Um, but also, uh, uh, You know, admire them and honor them and cater to them and all sorts of things. So, so neurodiversity is political, but it also is gaining, gaining a bit of, uh, research traction in terms of people actually wanting to study, you know, the, the positive attributes for many of these.

That’s awesome.

Yeah, I think, um, this is my just anecdotal thoughts, with what Alana said about how prevalent or perhaps like the link between queerness and neurodiversity and I think, um, I don’t know if Alana shared but Yeah, I use she they pronouns, you know, I have ADHD. It was a later diagnosis only in the past couple years But I think, , as queer folks, we’re already used to being outside of the typical.

And so, you know, you, you toss neurodiversity in there, we’re like, yeah, come on in, let’s go. We’re already primed , to love and embrace anything outside of the norm.

Yeah. I don’t think you get it. I just sort of did it quietly, but I added a they to my, to my pronoun.

Ooh. I

did. I did it because it was.

It was one of those [00:08:00] things. I was revisiting an essay that I was editing an essay I’d written already previously. And then there was just so much in it about like, like when a sentence is literally like, I’ve always felt uncomfortable in a room full of feminine women. Always, I’ve always never felt the same as them, you know?

And, um, and, but there was that question for a while of being like, am I they enough? You know what I mean? Like, and so then I was like, you know what I am, I am they enough. So I added a little bit. So, um, but I was, I was so surprised there’s, um, Oh, Sarah Hendricks, the person you were saying or no,

it was Judy, uh, Judy singer.

Okay. Cause there was this, this great book that I’m reading right now, women and girls on the autism spectrum. And I’m shocked at all. I was so surprised at all the parallels between like, gender diversity or androgyny, um, more generally, and like the gender and neurodiversity links, um, and even around, uh, people pleasing behaviors.

Already girls are more socialized to take on, but then girls who are especially maybe, I don’t know, actually, I’m not sure of the difference necessarily between, like, I know the differences, but like, I in how autism presents between girls and boys, but I don’t know the difference between how, how ADHD presents in both,

um, but

girls with autism is a much more like internalized anxiety driven thing, rather than an externalized, um, Behavioral thing and so that also lends itself to like just learning the social rules and the cues and masking and just kind of Hiding how you’re feeling and being quiet about it.

And those are all very people pleasery things, too So I’ve just been like shocked at the amount of overlap. It’s just like the things are just braided in

And [00:10:00] there is, um, emerging scientific understanding around that as well. So there, there is some evidence that there is a, you know, a greater overlap that there’s more like a greater proportion of people who are within the neuro divert, sorry, within the gender diverse.

Um, spectrum who also are neurodiverse. Um, most of what I’ve seen so far is related to autism specifically, but I, I wouldn’t discount the relationship between like ADHD, for example, and, um, neuro and gender diversity. I think there’s just a lag in terms of the scientific research that’s been done, but there is, um, more interest in this.

And I mean, there’s even more interest in gender diversity, um, in this field. And gender, you know, from a research perspective, because that, you know, and I’ve sort of watched that happen over the last two decades of people, researchers really getting more interested in that. I mean, even going from the binary where, you know, I’ve, I remember doing studies.

I always did sex differences study. So I always had, um, My animals were males and females, but my, my participants were always men and women and there really was never an opportunity to add another category. So you picked one. And if you didn’t, you know, fall into that, we excluded you from and all of us. I don’t just mean me, but like, from a scientific perspective, we excluded people who didn’t fall within that binary.

And so. On multiple levels, we’re trying, we’re starting to understand gender diversity, while also separately, researchers are starting to understand neurodiversity. And so the lag is there, but I, I think that that’s a sort of rich, exciting area of science that’s going to be emerging.

Yeah. I was surprised that some of the, so in this book, um, there were a couple like numbers that I thought were interesting.

Um, in the, link between gender dysphoria and autism. You’re over four times more likely to have, uh, to experience like gender differences, um, and transgender and gender diverse individuals are between three and six times more likely to be [00:12:00] autistic than cisgender individuals. So it’s just, um, it’s pretty, it’s pretty amazing.

And it’s also so frustrating to see the kind of, you know, Inherent gender bias that is like, or historical gender bias in the literature, in the research that has left. So many individuals just being missed.

Absolutely. And that’s definitely how I, my experience with ADHD, um, it never even occurred to me and not, you know, being in psychology, I’ve, you know, self analyzed and self diagnosed with, you know, so many things.

Um, ADHD never even crossed my radar until my kiddo who is eight, um, we got him assessed for the neuro or the psych education assessment. Um, and ADHD came back and you know, there’s a strong hair hereditary component. So we’re looking like, where’s it coming from? And so I went and did my own assessment.

And as I was filling out the questionnaires and then when I was talking with the, uh, nurse practitioner who did my assessment. And she was like saying it back to me, like, you know, you have ADHD and I was just like, wow, like even now I’m getting chills. And I think the big thing for me was that, you know, I’ve been diagnosed with anxiety and I’ve been on anxiety medication similar to, um, to autism.

It gets, it gets worse. Uh, missed as anxiety. And so a lot of the diagnosis we’re seeing now in females, like adult females was an earlier diagnosis of um, anxiety or borderline personality disorder. And then that’s being rediagnosed as ADHD. And when I started thinking about it, I was like, of course, this, this fits so well and anxiety never really fit well.

You know, I’ve had episodes of depression that never really fit. Well, um, you know, there’s all these things that never fit well. And then the ADHD one just felt like. Like, I almost want to cry, but like, I was coming home to like, this makes sense.

[00:14:00] You have language that kind of, I often find it so hard to articulate the things that are going on in my brain.

And it’s like, I now have a language to explain it. Yeah. The things you’re saying are very familiar too. Yeah,

like what brought you

to your diagnosis? Um, it’s therapy. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I know, um, even with, uh, living with my partner and seeing the way they approach work and are able to just like sit down and get through their day.

And I’m like, yeah. Oh, you just like sit at your desk and do your job. That was like a big eye opener for me. Um, yeah, I think, I think, being in partnership really eliminated the ways in which, uh, I diverge.

I mean, it’s interesting because I feel like there’s probably a lot of, I mean, I’m, I’m questioning everything about myself now because of my diversity, but like there’s a self selection that will probably go on.

Like. You don’t have a nine to five. Yeah, and that’s a reason. There’s a reason for that. You knew you couldn’t sit at a desk from nine to five. You needed a job that involved like looking at different things, bouncing around a bit, keeping yourself stimulated, constantly being under the pressure of time.

Right? Right? So it’s like we self select for, for things that we know we’re more inclined to be able to perform it or enjoy. Mm hmm. So wild. Um, what are some, do we have some questions for Mandy

here?

Actually, maybe we can talk more about this now having a diagnosis though, like with your experience of ADHD. So similarly, I mean, I don’t have a diagnosis, but it feels very clear to me when I look back at things, at behaviors I had as a kid, uh, things I did even as an adult in my experience. Um, because it did come at a time where I was [00:16:00] already like, why is this getting harder?

Like, why is everything getting harder? Why am I finding the things that I used to be able to push through and do? Harder to, now I’m gonna cry. And so, it already came at a time when I was like, what is going on here? You know?

Yeah.

And then, to have her diagnosis, I was like, it just kind of made sense to be like, okay, that’s what’s going on, is that, it’s like, I’ve been struggling to, ugh, can I even finish my sentence?

It’s okay.

Yeah.

It’s all good.

You know what I mean? It’s like, it was, the timing was just wild. I was already Being like, why is this so hard? Like, why are relationships difficult? Their friendships, even keeping them or like just things or, or why, why, why don’t I understand people sometimes like things like that, and then to have her diagnosis and then to be like, Oh, and there’s some, there’s like a kind of, in the same way you said no to have the language, it’s also, you can like extend yourself just a level of grace that you couldn’t before, because before you’d be judging yourself for like, well, why can’t I do this?

Or I should be able to do this. They can. Dev can just sit down and work. Why can’t I do this? Like, so you can extend yourself a level of understanding that you couldn’t be for. And now I feel like I’m also just able to, to, to take care of myself in a different way. Like I can’t have five different social events in a day.

And I know that, well, I plan accordingly and I’m not like feeling bad about it. In fact, I’m like, sweet. Got two and then I’m home and I’m alone or like I’m going out, but I’m going to be alone and I’m just going to have time to myself and read a book. It’s going to be amazing. And that’s what I need.

Versus like judging myself for being out and seeing other people like it’s a loud place and they’re having fun and they’re staying out and the sensory stuff is going on and there’s noises and lights and I’m like This is hell. [00:18:00] At this moment in time, this is hell for me. How can they do it? Like, I want to want those things.

I want for those things to be fun for me. And I was, like, judging myself when they weren’t. When I wasn’t having the same experience as other people.

Yeah, I totally can relate to that. And, um, All of those things in terms of like the social overstimulation is something that I feel like I got really good at, um, even like a decade ago when I was like, I need to manage my energy.

Um, I didn’t, I associated it with anxiety, which I don’t think it actually was, it was like a social, like it’s too stimulating. Um, but I’ve been, I was really hard on myself, uh, the last, like in the fall. So, you know, I just got the. Assessment done in, I think it was December, I guess, but that was leading after, um, from the summer onward, I was looking for a new job.

And part of this was because I do a lot of different things because I like a lot of different things. So I was like, okay, I want one job. I just want to do one thing. I’m gonna get rid of my company. I’m gonna stop teaching. I’m just gonna have one job. And so I was applying for all these things and I got a job.

I got addicted to it. I was addicted to like applying for things and the stimulation of like this potential and that interview and all this stuff. And in the end I actually walked away with five jobs, not one. And so I’ve got all these things and I’m like, how did this even happen? And I was so, Like that whole fall.

I was like, why can’t I just be a normal person? I did. This was long before ADHD was even on the radar. I was just like, why can’t I be a normal person? Why am I struggling? Why can’t I just be like a normal worker? And you know, and then eventually the, with the ADHD assessment, it was like, okay, this actually makes sense.

And it also had worked for me because when I was in, in the lab and I was, I’m an entrepreneur, so I had my own company. It worked for me for a very long time. And then it didn’t. And then that’s when it was like, it went from this like [00:20:00] high to a crash. And then the crash was so intense that I, you know, I was in a depression, you know, all of these things were just coming down a bit of a dopamine withdrawal, like from all of this, like intensity.

And I was just so hard on myself, but now I’m in one of my jobs in particular is amazing because I’m doing lots of different things, but it’s one job. And so my goal is to maybe. Keep one job that has a lot of different things, but it has a container like I have a boss now, which is amazing I didn’t really have a boss before and so I’ve got this like container and I’m starting to like give myself Permission based on the diagnosis like this is where my brain works.

Really really well And I can do all these things and have lots going on, and I can have lots of good ideas. ADHD brains are really resourceful. You can bring things together from different areas. So I can do that, but then I also have this container that works for my emotions and my emotional regulation, really.

I guess that does sort of lead into one of the questions that I had about, um, the challenges and gifts of neurodiverse brains. Yeah. Um, um, And we’ve mentioned a few of them already, like, it is, you know, a gift to be able to pull together these different things and make connections. We have all these challenges around maybe staying focused sometimes or hyper focus and then letting other things drop off.

You gotta ride those waves of focus,

they’re the best. Yeah! Like, superpowers in it. And I think it’s part of, you know, getting diagnosed and figuring these things out is like, You can look back and see, like, oh, these are actually, like, some of my superpowers. Um, in producing, um, films and stuff, it’s like, I have to keep a lot of plates spinning, and I’m actually quite good at that.

And it’s like, even for you, it’s like, I think you, like, your writing and your ability to see the world and reflect on it and understand the universe. And it’s like, that is your [00:22:00] superpower. And that’s an obsession. That’s like a special interest.

It’s like, how do people work? How do I work? Why do we work differently?

Like, it’s all this fascination with trying to put it into words and understand it. And it makes for the best, uh, voice notes in, in group chat. Yes. Also, it’s a very, it’s like the way I think I process emotions. Uh, one of the ways, because my tendency has been towards being in my head about it. Like thinking, overthinking, turning feelings into thoughts, but the, you know, the writing is an actual attempt to get in touch with that and articulate it in a way that is in my body rather than like stuck up in my head.

Yeah. And I think with all of these gifts, um, it’s like the riding the wave and knowing, knowing when you hit the peak of the wave and not falling down. And that was something that I learned actually in graduate school, because again, I’d always have different experiments going on. And I got, I got really productive because I would ride that wave, I would hit the peak and then I could detect when it was starting to fall.

And I was going to get frustrated and angry. And so I would, I learned to stop at that moment. And then I’d always have all this list of all these other things that were interesting. So I would switch to this other project. And then I would ride that wave. And then when it got to that point, I would switch.

So I could do a lot of different things and also be productive. And I didn’t find feel the crash as much because I would sort of switch to the next thing. And that was a strategy I just happened upon and it worked.

Yeah, a strategy that really works well for me, I used to put these really big things on my list, that I’d say was like, do your taxes or something like that, and you’re like, you have this huge, and you’re like, well, I’m never, I’m never going to just sit down and do that.

But if I could put smaller things to be like, Put all my receipts on the [00:24:00] desk or you know break it down into smaller bits Then I could actually get those like with ADHD. I find a lot of the time I’m chasing that dopamine And so if I can check a small thing off my list then I can kind of keep going and that builds to the next thing on the list and you can kind of Yeah.

Right. That wave. Yeah.

I recently put, um, like, I don’t put things in my calendar. They’re just in my brain, but I put do boring stuff in my calendar so that I remember to do the boring stuff. And that includes my taxes because I don’t want to do my taxes.

When Lauren said taxes, I had a memory that I was like, wait a second.

I feel like Mandy’s Oh yeah.

That came up in my. Assessment too. I was like talking with the nurse practitioner and I’m like, well, no one does their taxes. Like, I mean, I know it was like seven years, but like everyone avoids it. Doesn’t she don’t they? And she’s like, no. And I was like, really? I had no idea.

I swear. Like Janet, my partner’s name is. Step one, they’re like, I’m done. And I’m like,

no! Rude. Oh my god, see, I put it off quite a bit too. Man,

this is so eliminating. Uh, we’re kind of, you’re kind of answering our questions, you know. We were talking, like, one of them was, you know, how might a person benefit from knowing how their brain works and works differently.

Yeah. Um. Which is great. Um,

can I just talk, talk to that a little bit more though? Um, I think there’s just so much benefit, um, to knowing how you’re, I mean, this is what my, you know, my career has been based on this and it’s like to understand ourself gives us so much power. It helps us pick the right jobs, pick the right relationships, um, get out when we need to.

manage our own emotions, our own stress. Like if we don’t know ourselves, we can’t really do a lot of that effectively because there’s a million strategies out there. And if I don’t know what my brain needs, then I’m just, I could pick [00:26:00] someone else’s strategy and it doesn’t work. And so, Um, it’s so important.

And then also to know how other brains work, especially the ones that work like us, you know, all of us. I think it sounds like we’re all kind of feeling like affirmed when we hear someone else talk right now. Um, and other people listening are going to feel like that because they’re gonna be like, me too, me too.

And, you know, that’s just so helpful to make people feel like they’re not alone

if, um, yeah, I really appreciate that. You said that. And I think if folks are listening and some light bulbs are maybe going off, um, where do you think people should start on that? I mean, it sounds like all of us have kind of benefited from, from figuring out our brains a little bit better.

But if someone’s kind of at the beginning of that journey, what do you recommend for

I think there’s lots of different ways of, of, uh, going about it. And it, again, depends on like what you personally are drawn to. Um, it could be therapy. So in therapy, you get a lot of like. One on one, you know, a traditional therapist would, uh, affirm some of the things that you, that we experienced that, you know, telling you that you’re still good and like, you’re lovable and like all of these wonderful things and helping you see the beauty of yourself.

Um, Coaching is also an option and it’s a little bit more of like a partnership. So a lot of times coaches share their own personal experience. And so you could feel a bit of a relationship there in terms of knowing you’re not alone from a different level than a therapist, but also just like listening to podcasts.

Like if you’re, if someone starts to feel like, I think this might be me, there’s a million podcasts out there now where people are sharing their personal experiences. So you can feel that without having to like, You know, really approach it yet because it’s a bit more private. You don’t have to admit anything.

You’re just an exploratory phase and that’s totally wonderful. Um, and also just talking with other people or going to lectures, reading books. Like there’s so many places to do that. And [00:28:00] I think it’s just like, start, you know, I think listening to stories. is always super helpful.

Yeah. I remember the moment Instagram realized I had ADHD.

All these hilarious memes, right? It’s like, yeah, does your brain do this? Are you cleaning and I just like, yep, that’s yep. And it’s, it’s, it’s affirming to your point. Yeah.

Yeah. And there’s a lot of good, um, uh, books and even there’s some, I forget what they were exactly called, but there were, there’s like TED talks out there and videos that are specifically women talking about their experience with autism. And that was really helpful because like we said before, there’s such a, been such a gender bias in the literature and understandings of, of autism that Like, the more I watched, the more sure I was that she was autistic even before her assessment went through.

Like, it, it was so affirming. And then, and then reading books, seeing people’s, especially anecdotal stuff, because it is such a variety. And actually you can find, I forget who posted, there’s this one like list of a hundred things or whatever. And it is so unique. But when you see things That speak to your experience?

Like, I can see things in this book where I’m like, Yes, I did that when I was younger. And that was definitely me with a pile of anxiety and me trying to put it somewhere. And that’s where I put it. Or like, there’s also a connection between um, disordered eating as well. Uh, and And ASD and things like that.

I was like, I went, I definitely had a phase in my early twenties where I had disordered eating and there’s all these things. And that was a manifestation of my anxiety or an attempt to have control in some part of my life when I didn’t feel it otherwise. And, and so just seeing those or like experiences of being a parent and why I struggled so much in certain scenarios and then judge myself for it.

I can see this in [00:30:00] other women’s experience with autism. And so it was just so affirming to know that that’s where it stemmed from. And, and like, yeah, kind of helped me sort of retro, retroactively give myself a little bit of grace in those areas.

Can we talk about the diagnosis because I guess there’s a sort of separate process of like, just like learning more about something, but the diagnosis process in itself is actually quite challenging.

Um, partially because it’s really hard to get in it.

Diagnosis for ADHD or autism They’re, they are considered neurodevelopmental orders. And so they’re listed as that in the, um, the DSM. And so not a lot of people will do those diagnoses. Um, and when they do, they have to actually look back to childhood history in order to do, and.

So that’s one problem is just that it’s hard to get in a formal diagnosis as an adult. And then if you do have to get one, then you have to have sort of documentation from when you’re younger. Uh, there’s a few ways around that, but that’s kind of part of the process. Um, and. Uh, so that can be really challenging.

It’s also really expensive, depending on some routes that you go. And so I, I personally am an advocate for like self diagnosis. I think that that’s, um, you know, within the realm of getting help. And so I, I think that that is, um, In my opinion, I’m fine to do that and I, I don’t think that we should, uh, require, I mean, really it’s from an insurance perspective or any kind of benefits that the formal diagnosis is very helpful, but in terms of like your own self health, self diagnosis can be quite helpful.

Um, but then also, I want to just back up in terms of like the overlap in terms of like. [00:32:00] Uh, you know, these neuro diverse things like ADHD and autism, but part of my own journey for, you know, diagnosing my son, which then we got a formal diagnosis was because I was trying to figure out why, why does, why did he feel like more challenging as a child and part of it as a baby.

And part of it was because of my own stuff that I was bringing, but part of it was that, like, he was buzzing. He was like a baby that was like, had energy and I would pick up other babies. they felt different. And then I picked up this one baby who has since gotten diagnosed with ADHD and giftedness. And, you know, and I was like, Oh, he buzzed too.

And I felt that exact same energy in this child. Um, you know, and I’ve seen them both go through and get those diagnoses. So I felt something very different. And so I went through the route of like, you know, Is it giftedness? Cause a lot of people had said, he’s so aware, he’s so alert. Like he’s, you know, he’s advancing.

He started walking really early. So I ended up working with a psychologist who specialized in giftedness for like a year to get therapy for how to manage this child. And it was amazing. Um, so then eventually I started looking more and I’m like, I think it might be like ADHD. I think it might be autism.

Like, you know, I, I noticed the learning that he also has a learning disability. So I noticed that, but I was going through all these things and In the end, you know, it came up with ADHD. It wasn’t autism, but there’s so much overlap, you know, and then my own personal journey included that as well. I’m like, you know, was I missed giftedness?

Um, was I, is it autism? Is it ADHD? So, uh, and then when I look at a lot of people who are, have had giftedness, Um, as a child. So back in like the eighties, uh, giftedness was just like, you got extra work mostly, and you, you know, got to do like extra fun things, but so many of my friends who I tend to like have a lot of them around who were gifted.

I never was in the gifted program, but all these other people, many of them are now getting reassessed with, uh, ADHD or autism. [00:34:00] And so I’ve, I asked a friend of mine who’s, um, or my friend’s mom who worked with. Resource, uh, still working in the school system. I said, do you think there’s an overlap there?

And she’s like, absolutely. You know, what was giftedness then? Like, cause there’s all these sensitivities, like a lot of stuff that was part of giftedness was, is part of ADHD and autism, but we don’t, uh, giftedness is not in the DSM. This is something that is based on IQ only, but there’s all these other levels of like intensity.

focus, hyper focus, all this stuff. And I think that it’s kind of a lot of overlap, maybe the same in a lot of people as what you know, that used to be called giftedness is now maybe this neurodiversity. Um, but because we tend to pathologize things, you know, giftedness is harder to explain to people. I remember when I was You know, my son is gifted and they’re like, you know, they would scoff at me.

Like, you just think your kid is amazing. I’m like, no, no, I actually think he’s gifted because it’s so intense. Like his focus, I can’t get him to do these things. And so it’s easier to say he has ADHD. It’s easier to say in some ways autism because giftedness is just this other like weird thing that people also can’t accept.

I had an interesting, uh, grade six teacher who basically, I picked like 10 of us out of the class, maybe not even, maybe 8, and was like, Okay, you’re my gifted kids, you guys get to do these special projects and things like that. And I was explaining this to Deb, and Deb’s like, Yeah, you guys were like the ADHD rambunctious kids that needed like, Some other tasks that the normal stuff wasn’t gonna work for.

So funny. It’s like, Lauren, I really need you to run up and down the stairs ten times to deliver this thing to the room for me. Yeah, totally. I mean, kudos to that teacher for recognizing it.

Oh, that was, yeah, uh, a shout out to Ms. Roach. She used

and

That’s another thing. It is missing in And understanding amongst like teachers [00:36:00] as to what ASD looks like in girls, because there was no, I mean, now looking back, I can see signs of it from when my daughter was in small story school, the teachers, some things they’d say about her.

Now I know that those were signs, but if only all of our early childhood educators were also getting the kind of training to look at, to know what the identifiers are in girls and not just what it looks like in boys, because it does. It’s really like just another example of how women are, are invisible in some ways in our society still. Right. It’s another example of, you know, This kind of discounting of our experience, which we know happens on multiple levels in the medical field and other ways to this is just another example of this kind of, um, dismissive attitude towards what women and girls experience.

Well, I think that’s also why we are we’re, diagnosed later in life too. And it’s like, you know, we’re, we can be very high functioning and develop all these tools on our own, uh, that helps us, you know, fit in and, you know, get through the day. Yeah. And it’s also

such as like, we only ever really have our own experience to go by.

So to us, that’s normal. That’s normal. That’s how we live. And it’s only like you even said with you and Deb where you can say, Oh, I see this contrast. You can do this and I struggle with this. What’s going on there? But if you have, if you have no one kind of showing that to you or describing that to you, then it really takes like a lot of self awareness or some sort of light bulb moment to be like, Oh, not everyone feels this way.

Like you with the nurse practitioner being like, nobody does their taxes. And she’s like, actually, Mandy, you’re like, you know, like, so, so it’s those things where [00:38:00] you’re like, Oh, I just, I thought everyone was like that. You know? And it really takes like, I feel like there is something missing in our society that’s like, Hey, if you’re experiencing this, maybe, maybe this is you, or like, Just this, these kind of checkpoints for us, you know, bring back the BuzzFeed cat

quizzes.

Yeah. Well, and also

the masking component of it as an adult too, because that came up in my assessment. Um, cause when I was doing my interview with her, she’s like, this isn’t consistent with how you put your forms, like on some of the components. And then, you know, as she’s talking to me, she’s like, you haven’t been able to do this.

Like you’ve learned strategies on how to do it. It became clear that because I happen to be a, like someone who has. I’m very functional. I can do things. I’ve, you know, been productive for whatever reason. I figured it out or it happened because of my circumstances. Um, but I’ve masked those things. So again, it’s also why looking at it at childhood is most important because those who are functioning okay as adults probably have learned enough strategies and masked enough to get by.

That’s what I feel like the point I hit recently too, where it was like, I can’t keep this up anymore. Like, I can’t keep this momentum. I can’t keep being productive. I can’t keep up all these things that I was able to do before where suddenly, yeah, it was like, I had enough coping strategies to kind of force my way through it.

Um, and it takes that kind of falling apart to then see, to see what’s, what’s going on underneath.

Do you have any strategies you’d like to share with our listeners, um, either for ADHD or autism and that kind of thing?

Well, my recent strategy is having a boss and so, um,

yeah, just like, you know, I’ve always, when I look back to even my PhD, I had amazing supervisor for my [00:40:00] PhD, gave me lots and lots of freedom, but just enough constraints to keep me contained and tethered. And so, um, I think for me, I’ve always I’ve had to figure that balance out. And for the last decade, I think that I hadn’t figured that out.

Um, and now I’ve sort of brought in those constraints by having these boss like figures, even if they’re not actual bosses, but someone who. Is keeping some of the things, um, as a container for me. So I think that’s my biggest, um, strategy, but I also think, you know, novelty, like, finding the balance between, like, a routine and novelty, which, like, we generally as humans, we do.

Some routine. I don’t need a routine that someone else imposes. I need to make my own routine. And so I need the flexibility so that, you know, like you said, Lauren, like, you know, you dive into and you have a hyper focus on something. I don’t need a nine to five job. I need space so that I can do that. And, you know, maybe I spend weekend doing something because I can, and then I do other work after.

So I have to have a flexible schedule. That also became really challenging when I had a baby because that freedom got taken away from me. Um, but when I can, it’s like I create the flexibility. So there’s some kind of routine, but it’s self imposed. And, uh, and then I can give myself basically the permission and the space to dive into those topics and projects that I really want to do because I know that They come out amazing when I have the space to do that.

And my brain works really well when I have that space. It doesn’t work as well when I’ve got multiple meetings during the day and it’s on someone else’s schedule. It just doesn’t work. Well,

I agree. It’s same thing with me. Like, I think that’s why teaching has been so great for me because yeah, I can like teach, take a break, do a bit of work, go play tennis.

Like your day is spread out in the way that you want it [00:42:00] to be. That being said, children do get in the way of that, um, that freedom as well. But I had a little light bulb moment the other day too. Um, because my daughter was like, do you have that for breakfast every day? And I was like, yes, I do. And she was like, how can you eat the same thing every day?

And I was like, and it hit me that that just saves me mental energy.

Totally.

Dear queer,

 thank you so much, Mandy, for chatting with us about this stuff. I think it’s super, super helpful. And it’s the more I talked about it with friends, uh, experts, uh, colleagues, even, um, The more I feel I’m able to kind of slide into myself and like have, you know, more tools And uh, so I really appreciate you coming in not just sharing your expertise, but your personal experience with us.

So

You’re welcome. thanks for stew

This has been another episode of Dear Queer. Just a reminder, we are not actually experts. Any advice given should actually come from our experts who we will bring in from time to time.

Music brought to you by Sean Patrick Brennan, produced by myself, Lauren Hogarth, and your host as always, Alena Papayanis I’m cutting that.