Religious Trauma with Adaline Part 1

[00:00:00]

I was starting to question things. So there was a bit of space between me and the church. Jesus is my best friend. That I was able to look at it with some curiosity as opposed to immediately going to a place of self hatred and, and, and shame.

I don’t have a connection to God, any God. I did many years ago, but it wasn’t a healthy or happy one. The relationship felt paternalistic. This God was always hovering over me and waiting for me to do something wrong, like the threat of getting in trouble with a stern parent.

There was no love there, only judgment. He, the god I was taught about, seemed like a man, taught me how to do this for myself too. My Ukrainian Christian Orthodox grade school was attached to a church and our teacher would take us there for confession a few times a year, at the same frequency you might get rid of clutter, except we were purging our conscience.

We would be lined up from the front to the back of the church where the confessional was, one child per pew, sitting right at the edge near the aisle. It was like an assembly line of sin, waiting for our turn to come While I waited, I took inventory of my offenses. I sat there judging myself, a behavior I repeated over the years.

At first, the priest told me how to do this, but as the voice became internalized, it became harder to turn off. The self judgment made me feel bad about myself and bred shame. I was always in a state of [00:02:00] lack. There was no equivalent church ritual where we reflected on why we were decent kids, good enough and lovable as is.

then the last one is

and I think

for some, for some kids it’s worse, right? Like for some kids it goes deeper and, and sticks, sticks on you more than other

Yeah, and I think depending on the denomination, there’s a different set of narratives around what feels like and the, the, the complexity of the shame or the complexity of the fear can change depending on, is it Catholic, is it evangelical?

So that also makes it even trickier.

Yeah. So that’s what we’re talking about today on Dear Queer, I guess. Actually, I don’t even know, are we calling it religious Trauma is small t trauma. There’s also big T religious trauma. So it’s like somewhere in that category, we’ll come up with a better title, but joining us for this is one of my dear friends, Adeline, who has a similar, but very different experience in terms of, uh, a religious background.

So, um, can you give us a little, can you tell us a little bit about

yourself?

yourself? Yes. First, for having me. Also, love, Elena, and just met you, but I already love you too. Um, yeah, so I am the daughter of an evangelical minister. Uh, I’m also queer, which is why I’m on the show. Uh, and also just released a record processing through my queerness and spirituality.

And I also am the founder of a nonprofit called Bad Believer that deals with religious trauma.

Amazing. What an amazing title. Right.

it?

it? I’m obsessed with

Yeah, you are.

I come up

up with a good, with a good title for yours, I’m like, Oh, that’s

oh, that’s so good. Um, where can folks find you, just so we can shout out your

socials, um, for music, I’m Adeline Music.

So, A D A L I N E Music. I have that handle for everything. And then Bad Believer is Bad Believer Community. Badbeliever. [00:04:00] org.

good.

So can you tell us more about, like, I know a bit about your, your religious upbringing and I’ve learned more now. I saw you play a little while ago and in between songs, you’d give us more tidbits about, about like specifics, uh, to your experience, but can you tell other people like

And me.

this?

Yeah. And Lauren, more about this evangelical, like what does that mean to grow up in that environment and how, especially as related to queerness as

Yeah.

Well, like, like we just talked about earlier, I think depending on what environment you grew up in, you have such a unique experience of that. So evangelicalism is a kind of Christianity that is, would be under the, you know, Pentecostal, Baptist, charismatic movements.

So those, those denominations tend to be really focused on having a personal relationship with Jesus. So it’s less about. The, you know, with the Catholic Church, there’s a lot of like functions and a lot of liturgical realities and, and we do it this way, we do it that way. Uh, evangelicals are the ones that like, where, you know, have electric guitars and there’s like antelope beams chasing around the room during worship services and we’re jumping up and down and there’s that, you know, if anyone’s seen Jesus Camp or any of those kinds of documentaries, it’s that really

like an exuberance

totally,

saved.

Yes, very sensational and all around the idea of needing to be saved. Yes, and the joy of that experience. But I think that what we didn’t realize or what I didn’t realize when I was little is there’s like a, there’s the other side of a coin with that. So when you’re in, When you’re in and in the right club and doing the things you should do, there’s a massive joy of knowing that you’re the chosen one, that you’re doing it right.

There’s like a certainty of your life where you’re going in the afterlife and Jesus really is your best friend. So there’s this connection that to be frank, like I miss sometimes, like I miss that feeling because when you, start to deconstruct or you have to deconstruct because of queerness, you start to [00:06:00] lose that.

And then you, then you see the other side where now you’re on the outside looking in and that’s a scary reality based on the narratives around hell and all of those kinds of things. So when you’re in the club, it’s the best. Um, But the awareness of not being in it is important too because now I look back and realize how like arrogant and condescending

it could be to people that were othered, that were different than me.

Yeah, and how painful as well, right? Because no one wants to feel not a part of your own community.

No, I remember the first time I felt that being othered experience and because I was like white in a suburban town and I was the minister’s daughter so I already was on this like little pedestal. Which had a lot of pressure, but I, but I was a good kid and I did it right, so I was always like, the golden child.

And then I remember the first time holding my girlfriend’s hand, like, in a, I think we were in, where’s Avril Lavigne from again?

Nappanee.

Napanee, we were, I was holding my girlfriend’s hand in Napanee, we were in like, I think like a Canadian Tire or

Amazing.

And I experienced, like, that’s how I remember it so clearly, that feeling of having, Someone look at me and think I was

Yeah.

or that I wasn’t doing it right, or that I was something that was, you know.

Othered to them in a really scary way and that was when I was like, whoa I think I’ve had blinders on my whole life. I haven’t really understood Empathy or compassion for other people. So that’s the gift is realizing like having the blinders off and going. Oh my gosh We’re not loving we’re actually Categorizing people and deciding who and who isn’t going to heaven

How old were you then?

Oh, I was 30.

Because I came out way later.

This, this idea of lateness, though, it keeps coming up.

topic too.

late bloomer thing?

Yeah. Or like coming out late and it’s like, there’s no timeline, but that’s, that’s really interesting.

I think it’s, there’s. That’s gotta be [00:08:00] so jarring when you have this community,

um, for lack of a better word, that can feel so beautiful and, like, fill your cup and provide all of these things, and also have this other side to it. Because I think it’s easy to say, Oh, this religion is bad, because they’re Not accepting of queer folks or this or that, but there can be so much beauty and love and great lessons in, uh, many religions.

Uh, yeah.

what that brings up to mind for me, too, is that idea.

Yeah. So it’s like community, but at the expense of other people. Um, so that must have been a profound moment to see that. And I, like that hypocrisy or like that, that, yeah, that other side of it where it’s like, because we feel so connected in this way, it requires us to judge those that are not. And I feel like I felt that a lot, um.

Looking at my, like, the religion that I grew up in, it’s like, I could kind of feel the mismatch between what they were saying and preaching and, you know, who it included and who it didn’t include, and, and yeah, it kind of, that’s a really good way. I don’t know that I’ve ever really thought of it being as like the expense of other people in this way you’ve described, like that kind of disgust, that is that word, against people who don’t

see how you’re different until you’re different, and that is the gift, and why, I mean, this goes beyond the churches and into our political systems. It’s very clear to see that this fear of the other is really what is a virus in our community and in our churches, and there are some churches, like the churches, There are ones that are growing and are becoming affirming, so that are welcome to LGBTQ plus people, because I think the community piece is the thing that people mourn the most.

Um, I think we all need community, I mean whether you’re religious or not, we’re all trying to find ways to find our people, um, and of course if you believe the same thing that’s a beautiful way [00:10:00] to connect, but there are still so many obstacles to people feeling welcome, to people feeling not judged, like we’re not, we’re not, we haven’t got it right yet.

How, um, how explicit were the messages about queerness in your church? Like was it very much like labeled and named and like, this is bad or was it a more, uh, quiet thing?

Yeah, I would more, there, I feel like I have moments of remembering it being explicit, but I would say most of it was implicit.

Like,

I, I’d read scriptures, I mean there are seven, I think there are six or seven, um, scriptures that talk about homosexuality.

So I of course had read those, and I knew growing up, like, um, there are certain Bible stories that were painted as being about queerness that now later in life I realize weren’t about queerness at all, like Sodom and Gomorrah and all of these cities that were destroyed by God. Um, for, you know, for me I thought it was because of queerness.

So I knew that. But I would say in general, and continues to happen today, that I would say that pastors, priests, and people are a little hesitant to preach on homosexuality. So there would be, you know, like it would be very rare to go into a Sunday and that be the entire message. But, sometimes in the laundry list, of sins that people would use as examples of how we’re separated from God, homosexuality would be thrown in that list.

So it’d be like murderers, adulterers, homosexuals. So those were the messages, but it was very rare to hear a pointed message on homosexuality, and I think it had a lot to do with how complicated homosexuality was in the 80s, 90s, and 2000s with, in the political climate. So I think everyone in the AIDS epidemic, everyone was kind of like, at least in Canada, I have heard messages in some more, like Southern United States churches that are extremely explicit blaming the queer community for

eating misery

and that this, [00:12:00] the sickness is because of it.

But I don’t remember growing up with that pointed of a message. Do you? Yeah.

I mean, it must have been lumped in with the lessons and the sort of list of sins, that laundry list is a good way of putting it. But yeah, there were no, you know, full on sermons that were just directed at it entirely.

I think it was like, for people, it was such an uncomfortable idea. Same sex. Sex. Yeah. Um, and attraction that I think that there was like a

any sex. Yeah. To some degree, right? It’s like, Women, you’re not supposed to have sex before marriage, but then once you’re married, you’re supposed to do it whenever he wants you to do

pro procreative.

And you’re supposed to, yeah, procreatively. Yeah. And you’re supposed to like that. Yeah, exactly. The original whore thing.

So it’s like that was already discomfort around that. Let alone, let alone queer sex.

Yeah, and the word that I remember hearing up, hearing growing up a lot about, it was abomination, right?

There’s, but when you go and you look at these verses in the Old Testament that talk about homosexuality being an abomination, the next verse next to it is like eating shellfish is an abomination. Wearing clothing of mixed fabrics is an abomination. So it’s just interesting how, We’ve like, people do that all the time, and it’s not a big deal, but we’re, they’re like dying on this hill.

And so for me, I think because there was that word, it was just uncomfortable in general, I think, for pastors to actually talk about that kind of sex.

Um, and when did you start realizing that you might be queer?

Oh, like watching TV.

Yeah. Okay. You’re

What show? Oh my gosh,

so stereotypical, but the L word.

I was like, it’s gonna be Buffy or the L

Yeah, it was the L word.

Yeah, it was the L word for me. I, I think that, uh, I, at first it was more just, [00:14:00] uh, we, with queerness and religion, it’s such a journey for people to actually identify as gay. Like, I think for me it was more like, oh, I think that’s sexy. But, it was objectively sexy. Like, I kind of thought, like, there’s no one on the planet who isn’t going to watch a scene from the L Word and not think it’s sexy.

Now, later on, I know that there are people

who

watch that and don’t, which is like mind boggling to me. Um, but yeah, that was it. And then it just sort of sat dormant, um, in my 20s. I watched the It just kind of sat dormant for me. But then I met someone in real life who, like, activated this interesting thing for me where I met her, like, at an art gallery or something.

It’s very, very gay. And I went to the bathroom and, like, redid my lipstick and brushed my hair. And it was like in that moment that I was like, What? What am I doing? I’m actually

Yeah. Yeah.

And then I just had those feelings and it was like not long after meeting her that, that, that something happened. So I was thankfully in a place in my religious journey where I’d already done a little bit of deconstruction.

I was starting to question things. So there was a bit of space between me and the church. Jesus is my best friend. That I was able to look at it with some curiosity as opposed to immediately going to a place of self hatred and, and, and shame. Um, I eventually did have to go through those emotions because for me, the attraction piece felt manageable, but it’s when I fell in love.

That was when it was like, okay, now I’m in love with a woman. I have to do that work of really understanding what that means for me, my spiritual life and these narratives I’ve had my whole life.

uh, and, where, where is, where has your relationship with church, and God, and religion, and all of that stuff come to you now? Have you rejected it fully, is it still play a part in your life? Um,

I haven’t rejected it fully. I would say that I’m still on a [00:16:00] journey of understanding it. And when I grew up, I grew up with this, which now I see as a very controlling, device where it was, they called it lukewarm Christianity.

And what that meant was people that were not fully in or fully out. So I always was very afraid of being a lukewarm Christian because I was taught that if I did that, that God would spit me out of his mouth. That was the phrase that they would

Wow.

Well, it’s from, it’s like, that’s a scripture somewhere, but again, we’re interpreting these things as a very, in a very precise way.

So I was very afraid of that. And now as an adult and in my, in my journey, I realized that like, if I don’t know for sure what I

mm-Hmm.

until the day I die, that’s okay. Like, I don’t have to know. I would say the certainty I had around. The Christian narrative of Jesus and all that, that is definitely not there anymore.

Um, there are things I definitely don’t believe anymore. I don’t believe in hell. I don’t believe in any of that. But, I haven’t, I wouldn’t say I’m an atheist, though, either. I would say I’m probably, like, agnostic?

be

would be a bit of a universalist. I do think that many paths lead to God. I don’t think that the exclusivity of Christianity is always very healthy.

I think it’s caused a lot of wars and a lot of justification for a lot of harm, but I am for sure someone who is still, um, wandering and discovering.

discovering. You know, so it’s much easier for me to kind of reject, reject the whole bag, you know, um, and so I’d say I’ve come into kind of a spirituality but it’s, it’s more about the relationship to myself these days because I wasn’t taught that growing up. It was all about my relationship to that [00:18:00] guy up there, you know, rather than fostering, fostering you as a person and like, I don’t know, and even teaching that self love, you know, and um, it would, I mean, in some ways, I don’t know, I’m still trying to figure that piece out, like that, if anything, it’s like a universe thing rather than like a God thing for me and like a connection to nature and energy and people and the like collective kind of, uh, love and stuff like that.

But I, I, I still have a hard time. connecting to a religion. Like, as an institution, I can’t, I don’t, I don’t think I’ll ever do that again. It’s, yeah.

The institution piece, I think, is where it gets tricky. Um, I have a, uh, a beautiful friend who grew up, um, in a very, like, religious family, and, you know, she’s very liberal, has lots of queer friends, all of that stuff, and she has had to find, um, religion in her life.

More in an individual way and I think we all want and like think about you know We’re literally on this, you know spinning rock in the in space And so of course we’re there we want to find those connections be it we call it spirituality or we’re interested in Astrology or like we’re always looking for that higher thing I think the thing we’re taking issue is when it becomes institutional or and it is used to You Elevate one group of people over another because I think there is a lot of beauty and in the community aspects I mean, that’s one of the best parts about being queer is the community

Totally. Well, and I often will compare organized religion to franchising, uh, a

I love that

in the sense that. You know, I remember when Chipotle came out, and it was like, there was like a mother cooking all the tortillas fresh, and it was like a field of fresh tomatoes, and I think it did really start from that like farm to table kind of vibe.

And then it franchised, so. [00:20:00] There’s no way if you have like this set of things that have to be passed down It has to be this way eventually it gets Watered down and watered down and you’re teaching these communities of people to not think for themselves To only believe what they’re being told They’re actually taught to not trust their instincts because those instincts could be misled by the devil or the enemy So you’re creating a cut of these communities of people who even when they have that little instinct like this doesn’t feel right Start they don’t follow that because they think that’s a prompting from some dark and evil side that you start to create these very like very unorganized and very detrimental systems when the core of spirituality the core of connection whether it’s whatever religion it is what just the other night watching the Northern Lights like you can’t Watch that and not feel this like amazing feeling and that is what I still pursue because Jesus was my best friend

It’s very hard to not look or to not seek some kind of connection But I think we all do that in different ways even atheists would admit that But even atheists are like, just because I’m an atheist doesn’t mean I don’t feel inspired and awed by nature or don’t get that flutter in my heart when I see the incredible vastness of the universe.

So I think with me and queerness, it’s more about feeling the permission to explore your spiritual life and try to shake off the narratives that basically told you if you were gay, you don’t get to have sex. access to your spiritual life, when really we all need to be able to explore that side of ourselves.

it’s that dogmatic, indoctrinating force that, that, uh, That bothers me. And that, you brought up a good point about critical thinking, too, because I feel like that’s definitely something that I lacked for years because I was taught in this very dogmatic way that, like, these are the rules, this is how things [00:22:00] should be,

And

it’s not really questionable, uh, which is so frustrating.

Well, it’s so dangerous, too, right? Because it,

it, it,

translates to other things in people’s lives, too.

Yeah!

Do you feel comfortable doing a question? We have one that’s kind of on theme today.

Okay. When you say question, you mean, like,

like,

Like a, like a,

written in questions?

Oh, a listener question. Oh, Dear Queer.

Queer, you’re doing it. Hi, Dear Queer. Lesbian in my 30s here. I came out to my Christian family years ago.

And though they didn’t embrace everything, they didn’t seem unaccepting of me.

Now I am in a serious relationship with a woman, and their fears around my sexuality are coming up more and more, with my mom even pushing books and trying to get me back in the church. Basically saying all the wrong things. They actually think there is a choice in this, and that I could be with a guy again, because I dated men in college.

I want a relationship with them, but not one where they can’t accept all of me. Any advice to your queer?

your queer? It’s interesting that

Yeah, I mean, it’s interesting that whole, like, first they seem accepting, but then the reality sunk in, and then that’s when the resistance, their own resistance, um, sort of takes more hold again, because the reality of it is sinking in that, like, oh, their future really might be

with

another, with another same sex person, and, um,

and

That’s, I think, really common with family to have that kind of, like, they want to accept it, but they’ve been indoctrinated in their own way.

So it’s just like this cognitive dissonance where they’re like, they can’t put those two things together. Um, which feels, I don’t know how much, I don’t know, I don’t want to go too much into detail about my family, but it feels very, uh, similar

Yeah, I think the bottom line with [00:24:00] all of this is it’s very common for us with parents to be looking to them for approval or, but with all of this, we are having to

reparent.

So we are having to take their narrative. So just as much as they might be giving books to you, there are plenty of incredible queer theology books that you could be giving to them to say, listen, you have this one view. Would you be willing? To look at this other view, even if you end up reading it and you don’t agree with it, that’s okay.

But I think that if we’re going to have a very meaningful conversation here, Christians, a lot of Christians do not realize the amount of academic discourse there is around queer theology. A lot of these. Theologians that have been building these principles that a lot of churches abide by have become queer affirming, but it just takes a long time for the, for the whole body to move.

So I think it’s like, doesn’t have to be, it could be an exploration for this family of, Hey, listen, I know you love me. I know you’re giving me these things because you’re afraid. And the, and I get that, but can I give you some things? And whoever that is, if you need right resources, please reach out. Cause we have lots of those for family and parents.

that we can give to you, uh, and start that process. If after that process there isn’t a willingness, I think that’s when boundaries come in and you have to be like, listen, I love you, but like this, I get one life here and I need to live it happily. But a lot of the fear is coming from, for a lot of families, this fear of what will happen once they die.

So it’s rooted in love, but also overshadowed by fear. And with a lot of Christianity, the ends justify the means because there’s this, foreboding like fear of yes, so they’re so this causes a lot of abuse in churches because they’re like we have to do whatever it takes to save them because when they die so then they end up getting into patterns of abuse in in our life because they’re like I’ll do it no matter what whatever it takes so that family just needs to realize [00:26:00] that they’re they’re operating from that it’s

It’s, it’s like, it’s a scarcity mindset. Yes. Whereas, you know, if they probably spend some time and, like, really, you know, clawed away at the root of what’s going on. It’s like, oh, my child is happy. My child is probably being cared for in a way that they haven’t been able to felt. They’re showing up as themselves.

Like, how beautiful is that?

Um,

bring that out for someone, I think. With part of re parenting is also showing that you’re happy and over time, parents in general, unless they have other issues, will be like, they seem happy and maybe start to let some of those things go.

Sorry, what were you

no no that’s it’s it’s true That’s the the hope is like the more you show up as yourself that you you will get to be seen I love I love what you said about kind of meeting them on their playing fields like oh, they’re giving you

is this a book exchange? I’ve got some.

think sometimes it’s like kids, or whatever, as the children in the dynamic, we forget that it’s like, Oh, we can, we can put this back. This can actually be a conversation. And, uh, yeah. So I think that’s a great, great piece of

You delved into queer, uh, like religious, uh, theology a little bit in, in your coming out too, right? As like part of your process?

that was, because the narratives are so embedded, the queer theology piece was important for me to be able to actually let go of those. I felt like if I didn’t study queer theology, I would always like in the back of my head, even though I’d be living out and proud in the back of my head, I’d be like, but is it a sin?

But is it a sin? So I think that It felt like it was an important thing. And my dad and I have a really special relationship. My dad has a PhD in theology and we love to discuss things and I’m not entirely sure where he is on his affirming journey, but it means a lot to me. I went into his study when I was home for Christmas and I saw on his shelf he had tons of queer theology books.

Yeah, and he had them open and some things were underlined and highlighted and I don’t [00:28:00] know if he’ll ever get. to a completely affirming position. But I think that that’s what parents in church communities need to realize, is like, if you’re going to have a very firm position on something, you cannot, in good conscience, do that without studying these other things.

If someone studies it and still comes to a conclusion and they don’t think that it’s compelling, that’s fine. But you can’t hold a sign and point fingers without doing that work. It’s just, it’s, it’s harmful. It’s dangerous.

love that. So like the door’s open

him. Yeah.

You know, but, and he’s kind of doing his own research.

I love

that. Yeah.

think

it’s, it’s a good reminder that just as we don’t, you know, we don’t We don’t want our parents or people in our lives to change us and, you know, probably feel very resolutely that they won’t be able to. We, you, this person or anyone else out there, you probably, you Or you may not change your family’s mind and that that can also be okay because that’s that’s actually A way you can love them is by letting them have you know, obviously nothing harmful And you know, we all have to be loving and good but when it comes to specific opinions Knowing that like you may not change their mind.

I think it’s important

and

for a lot of queer people, this is their only experience of letting their family down. You know, there’s a lot of good kids that grew up doing things, they didn’t, they weren’t rebellious or whatever that means, and, and, and this is the first time they’re having to come to head with feeling that dissonance and living in it.

Like, that’s the

that’s a great point because being, as being the good kid growing up, that’s the fear you’re, that’s the thing you’re always fending off is that feeling of disappointing.

Yes. your parents. And so you’ve been spending years fending that off. So then to now be like, I got something for you. It’s a huge disappointment. Like,

And it’s not, you can’t like, quote unquote, [00:30:00] fix it. It’s not like you like, went and stole lip balm from, you know, Shopper’s Drug Mart and you’re doing penance. It’s like, this is who you are, so it’s never gonna change. So then there’s that aspect of maybe potentially having to live in that dissonance.

Until the end of their lives, which is so hard.

How long should we go do a part two

I feel like we’ve

like we’ve been going on for a while. Should we like, do a little closer and then go onto the more

Uh, okay.

Well, clearly there is a lot to chat about here. Um, we would love to keep this going and roll into a part two.

Come back next week.

[Mic bleed]

This has been another episode of Dear Queer. Just a reminder, we are not actually experts. Any advice given should actually come from our experts who we will bring in from time to time.

Music brought to you by Sean Patrick Brennan, produced by myself, Lauren Hogarth, and your host as always, Alena Papayanis I’m cutting that.