Yes. I feel like people give away Sometimes what their previous, what their most recent relationships were like in their dating profiles. When they’re like, don’t be like this. Like, whatever you do, don’t do this.

Or whatever their red flags that they’re listing, it’s because their ex did not do, or displayed those things.

​

Today on the pod we are talking about lessons in love. ​

One Sunday morning a few springs ago, I went for a drive in the hope that it would distract me. I was sad because a person I’d been casually dating had just returned from being away for a few months, but wasn’t making any effort to see me. I’d been dating other people while they were gone, and we were by no means exclusive, but romantic connections can be hard for me to come by, and they were still the person I enjoyed talking to and making out with the most.

I wasn’t happy with this situation, and I wasn’t sure what to do about it. I had stopped at an intersection not too far from home, my eyes still glistening from tears I’d shed over the recent developments, or lack of developments, and I saw a couple I know standing at the corner. They are one of those couples that people envy because they are genuinely and gloriously in love.

As I looked at them from across the street, they looked at each other, held that look for a few seconds, and then kissed. I burst into tears. In that moment, I could no longer deny what my heart had been trying to tell me. But my head had been trying to ignore.

I want [00:02:00] that. And that was not the relationship I currently had. It took that look and that kiss for me to know it with certainty.

 Oh my gosh!

I know! Are you, are you, um, Are you blushing a

blushing a little? Uh, a

so, um, Listers may not realize, but , the couple that I was witnessing at this corner being so adorable and cute was, uh, Lauren and Dev. And that was so nice. Uh, this was the backstory to, like, this was before I invited you two to that backyard party that I referenced in an earlier podcast because I was just kind of like, what’s their deal?

I like them. Like, I like their vibe. I like, and they just seem like, you know, just lovely people. And so, but yeah, that was a moment. I think I told you to that when, when you were at that party that night, I think I pulled you over and I was like, just so you know, like, this is something that meant something to me when I, when I saw you two.

It was, yeah. And I remember like when Dev and I were going home after that, it was like, wow, that like, it just like felt so good to be seen by you in that way. That you even shared, like the intimacy between us as friends I think grew from that because it was like you were, you were sharing something that was actually like, you know, More, more personal to you probably than that moment even was to Dev and I.

Absolutely,

yeah. That was just a, another kiss on any old day. But for me it was like, it was a, it was a moment where I realized something about what I wanted. Mm-Hmm. that previously I was kind of, you know, compromising around. Yeah. Basically

It’s um, it’s super cheesy but, we talk about kind of having these little light posts of keep going like kind of lighting our path and You telling us that story was one of the earlier ones that were like, [00:04:00] oh I don’t know, it just like felt very affirming and, you know, there is, um, this one older woman who, we were just sitting outside a coffee shop and she’s like, I just had to come over and stop and say , you two look so cute together and whenever that happens, I know it’s corny, but , I always just blush , it just feels good.

Yeah,

It was, how did you say? It said something like, it’s nice to know that people see it the way we

it,

basically. It

felt like a transparent moment that it was like, okay, it’s as obvious to everyone else as it is to the way we feel it. Totally. Yeah.

Yeah. Cause I think you can feel like something is new or exciting or like all consuming or what, whatever it is.

And then you’re just like, wait, is it just me? And then so when other people see it too, you’re like, Oh, Hey.

yeah, I love that you two are the best

Oh, I feel, feel super, super lucky.

Yeah. I feel like I should be asking you all the questions for lessons in love. I mean, the lessons I’ve learned are all from mistakes, but I think, I think you’ve, I mean, not all from mistakes are probably the vast majority are from mistakes.

Um, but I feel like you, . You’ve been able to practice those good things. You know what I mean? Like, you’ve been able to,

put into practice those lessons that you probably learned in the past. I mean, you’re probably still learning some. Oh, always. Yeah. Yeah,

 I think, um, relationships kind of, you get into them and they can be like mirrors. Oh, yeah. And different things will come up. I think being in, in a relationship you can learn so much more about yourself and like what triggers come up, what insecurities, what sensitivities, and it asks, it actually asks you more to tune into yourself and who you are and what’s important and like how you’re going to show up. Yeah.

You can only heal so much on your own, but I think that final piece [00:06:00] is healing in relationship to other people too, because like you said, that’s when the triggers come up. You can be super stable in yourself and on your own, but then when it’s that romantic dynamic, typically, I mean, in friendships, sometimes you can, you know, you can be triggered as well, but are activated or whatever word, um, you know, whatever word feels the most appropriate.

But it’s in those romantic relationships, especially when you are, like you said, you’re challenged to face those insecurities or those feelings that bubble up that are really about something else from the past. And, uh, and yeah, like you said, it’s a mirror and that’s really,

that’s like maybe my biggest metaphor for relationships is that they’re mirrors and that’s because it was after, um,

Wait, do you want to explain a little bit when we’re saying, like, what that means for, for the listeners or like how we interpret it?

As

Yeah, yeah.

mean, I, I just feel like there are moments when you can see yourself more clearly and learn about yourself.

Like, it was after, it was during a breakup that I realized I was a people pleaser because I was doing exactly that. I was reflecting and I was like, wait a second, what was I doing? What was she doing? And just literally kind of this. Comparison in a way, but in a healthy way, because it was like, wait, they, they did this and then I felt this way, why was that, you know, and, um, and not even in romantic ones too, but even with my daughter, like, she’s just literally a little mirror, like from the beginning, you know, so if tendencies come up, have come up with her, you’re like, wait a second, do I, Do I do that?

Is that why she’s doing that? Like, am I a perfectionist? Because she’s a perfectionist. Like, because I see it in her. She had to learn it somewhere, you know? So,, yeah, mirrors are just like, we just learn so

sorry, I didn’t mean to cut you off on, uh,

No, I don’t, what do you mean?

were gonna do, talk about a specific example, I think, with

Was I?

with dating.

Shoot, I, I derailed

have? No. How much time do you have?

Um, I don’t remember what I was going to say.

Well, , when you were saying about [00:08:00] relationships too, I was thinking about, this is something my grandfather told me, and it was, I’m applying it to relationships, but it was about jobs because I think I was complaining about some, some early job I had at like a bakery and I was, uh, smelled like baked goods and whatever.

I mean,

there’s worse things to smell like,

like. It’s true. I do. I do love doughnuts. I

I would love to smell like a fresh loaf of bread every

Yeah, and he was telling me how, well, your summer jobs and early jobs, it’s like, it’s, those are the perfect, you know, uh, ground to figure out what you don’t want to

do.

Mm.

And I kind of feel like, , relationships are that too.

And, uh, It’s like you, you learn what works for you, what your non negotiables are, where, how you want to show up, what’s important in a partner. And I remember in like my early, my, my, my early loves, and it was, it’s like, I’d get out of a relationship, and I’d be like, okay, well, I’m never doing that again, or I really liked this aspect of it, but then I was, it was kind of like a pendulum swung, and so it’s like if one relationship maybe was a bit more controlling than I liked, and , then you swing to a relationship where you’re like, hey, pay attention to me, um, I’m over here, could you, could you be a little more involved?

we overcorrect

and so I feel like the, the lessons I’ve learned has been kind of balancing that. Kind of coming to this center, um, point. Yeah.

Yeah, rather than going from extreme to extreme. Yes. I feel like people give away Sometimes what their previous, what their most recent relationships were like in their dating profiles. When they’re like, don’t be like this. Like, whatever you do, don’t do this.

Or whatever their red flags that they’re listing, it’s because their ex did or displayed those things.

Or their new hard and fast non-negotiables

yes, exactly. But you’re right, that can be, that can be a kind of, well, an unhelpful overcorrection. Because then you’re losing that balance, when [00:10:00] really that’s. Probably the healthier route. Is that in between somewhere?

Oh, I think too with like lessons in love, like I know we’ve talked, like obviously talked about romantic, but um, I think it’s important too that

there’s, uh, romantic love doesn’t necessarily have to mean partnership. I love that you talked about your daughter, and I think in our, in our friendships, it’s, it’s important too.

And that there can be love there, , being partnered isn’t just the like, pinnacle of it all.

Yeah, that was, um, that was one thing I wanted to bring up too, was this notion of, I think one mistake I’ve made

is

making too much of a distinction, almost, between those two things.

 Between romantic love or platonic love. And, and Almost having platonic love have a lesser value, or maybe the opposite, more that the romantic one has had a greater value. , it shouldn’t be that way. Like, I mean. It’s not exactly the same, because there is a level of intimacy in the romantic relationship that there isn’t in the friendship, but, but it’s a, it’s still, there’s a different kind of intimacy in the friendship, in the platonic

and more sometimes too. You could like go to like, oh my gosh, I think about when you start dating someone , you know, you go to your friends and you’re telling them and workshopping things and like they have been there with you through often multiple relationships and like different phases of your life and all of

that.

Yeah.

they can even be longer term and all sorts of things. Yeah,

I have a great friend who, um, who lives nearby, who I’ve known since grade two. Oh

Oh my gosh, that’s amazing.

Yeah. And it is, it’s remarkable because we have, we have known each other throughout different phases. We’ve lived in different.

Parts of the world, but still, like, maybe had some time where we’re not close, but then we always kind of find each other again, and, uh, And yeah, it is a, because there’s a lay, there’s a history there that, that leads to an [00:12:00] intimacy that you don’t have in a fresh romantic relationship.

romantic relationship.

Absolutely. Um, what, wait, I forgot a question for you. What would that friend say was like an early, like a big lesson for you to learn in love?

Well, so we’re really opposite.

Okay.

, in some ways, like doing a podcast, sharing, writing, the level of kind of intimacy that I share about myself would mortify her. She would never do that. And she’s like, how do you do that?

, so it’s kind of interesting in that way that there’s this dynamic where she could never imagine doing what I do. , I don’t know what she would say my early lessons are. I mean, I just know I have a huge list. I have a huge list of, of things. Um, sharing too much too soon or like getting, you know, like jumping in too fast.

I mean, not in a technical U Haul term, but in an emotional way. An emotional U Haul, right? Is

though? Because I mean, it’s like you’re sharing yourself and I don’t know, that’s how we can figure it out? Or is it just because then you share too much and then get hurt?

Or what’s

So

I think there is a danger there.

I mean, I think it’s healthy to share. Like you said, it’s how, you know, you

build intimacy. But it’s like, sometimes we can share too much too fast. At least I’m speaking for myself here. Because there’s like a subconscious thing going on where You kind of want to short track the relationship.

You want to speed it up. You want to get to a level of intimacy sooner and faster than is natural or probably healthy.

Okay, yeah.

You know, like you want to skip a bunch of steps to get to this place where you know each other, but it’s not real, like you haven’t been through all this stuff. You haven’t, experienced each other in different ways and over time yet.

So you can’t actually skip those steps, right? And then it can also leave you feeling, you [00:14:00] More hurt or more vulnerable. You kind of open yourself up too much, too soon. So then you can feel extra hurt if it doesn’t go the way you hoped or if they don’t reciprocate in, in a way. Uh, I think it was Brene Brown that was talking about vulnerability.

We should probably just do an episode on vulnerability at some point where it’s like this idea that , it should come in little steps, like you’re a little vulnerable and then if they can reciprocate, then you feel. Then there’s some trust there, but like, just sharing, sharing without the trust, then it’s kind of Does

that kind of, like, uh, correlate with, like, love bombing? It’s like you’re, you’re trying to find this connection by, um, I know, okay, big spoiler, uh, this actually isn’t a spoiler, but, um, big Bachelor in Reality TV

Oh yeah.

over here.

But, it’s like you watch that show and it’s like, okay, they’ve got a, they’ve got a date. They have to share some trauma about their life. So that they can build this false sense of intimacy and connection. And then , you wonder why they fizzle out so fast or like, it’s like, it’s like the flame burns bright, but then it

Yeah. Or you also see, especially in these reality shows, there’s like, then they’re so shaky immediately after because they’ve, they’ve shared so much, so fast, and then when they get to the level where they’re like, okay, now you’re back with the X for a bit and we’ll see if you’re gonna get back.

So suddenly that person in that new bond is freaking out because it’s triggered their. Attachment style and they’re like, oh no, I share it so much and now this

My chest is open.

right And so it it definitely preys on vulnerability and encourages it because obviously you do need it to get close But you can’t fast track it that

Okay. So knowing that, how do you approach? Dating, relationships, and , do you have rules for yourself or what do you, what’s your, what’s your vibe?

sometimes I

 I

mean, I’m obviously not afraid to

afraid

but

I [00:16:00] guess I’m a little wary of when it’s too much too soon because I’ve definitely been trauma dumped

Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

on a first date or something.

And that is clearly. That’s clearly a wound or like that’s too much, you know, and that’s not I, they don’t know me. How do they know that they can trust me with that? You

mean, they can. They absolutely can. I

know, but how do they, how do they know that they do? You know what I mean? So, so kind of that, that’s something I’ll look for.

And then I think I just, it depends who it is, if, if I’ve known them for a while and if I feel like I can share. But I think I, I’m more aware of it being like a bit of a give and take where it’s like, see, see where they’re at. And then I share accordingly, or I share and see, see if they share. But, you know, I don’t go into the, I try not to go into the deep stuff

the road.

like first date, because that feels like too much.

think there too, there can be, I mean, us queers, we’ve got lots of trauma.

And so there’s like that connection and it can be a very, uh, fast track for sure to bond to someone. But I think, I think you’re right to kind of take it slow. yeah, because

because too much too soon can, like you said, we can burn bright and fast and then burn out or it can just be an unhealthy connection.

Have you noticed I mean obviously you shared that you were married before this to a man,

the

any,

any differences or lessons between going from dating men to dating women in like, I just, I don’t know, maybe, maybe I’m generalizing, but I just feel like in queer relationships , there are so many more feelings and emotion and all of that too, so I think that also makes it, you know, more susceptible to kind of just, here you go.

Yeah, I think you’re right. I think it’s There’s not that expectation of sharing when it’s, honestly I can’t even remember dating men anymore. Feels like,

The [00:18:00] same. Who

that, me?

that? Yeah,

honestly, it feels like a whole other life.

But, yeah, I don’t think there was that expectation at all. Like I think, especially, you know, in queer dating, you could. on every, on every first date, be like, when did you come out? And, and that’s like a, that’s a deep story you can go to straight away.

many, like, you know, I was on the apps. I did the thing. And, uh, I remember it was like, there was the first dates were kind of formulaic. That’s like, okay, when did you come out? Uh,

What sign are

you?

What’s, What’s,

what’s going on?

Yeah, we’re going to have to do a full, astrology.

Yeah. episode. That’d be fun.

So I don’t know how deep you want to go here, ,

I’m, I’m ready.

but this notion of falling for someone’s potential, like this is kind of a, um, An attachment woundy kind of thing or like in a little, a little inner, inner child kind of thing, where if a parent wasn’t present emotionally, or wasn’t, you know, kind of the parent you had hoped or,

It’s like you get so excited about what someone could be.

Yes, and you overlook the fact that they’re not that.

Mm hmm.

Yeah.

I

feel like this is a lesson I’ve, I’ve learned a couple times over, which is also sometimes what happens with lessons. You’re just like, you think you’ve learned it. And then, you know, a time goes by and then suddenly you’re like, wait a second, I just learned that again.

I thought I, I thought I wasn’t learning that one anymore, I think that also maybe goes along with realizing that you need to find someone that you love. for who they are and not, like, with any hopes of changing anyone. Because that’s another, I think, really common thing where people hold on to that hope that, well, if I just Oh, and I, I mean, this is also in a lot of reality shows.

Like, The Ultimatum, for example. I love how we’re going right into reality shows,

but

that is [00:20:00] fundamentally About someone saying, I want them to be someone else, and if they can’t be that person, then we’re breaking up.

Like,

literally, it’s like, here’s your mold, you need to fit into it, and if you don’t, we’re done.

Because, I’ve, I’ve been trying for years to put you into that mold, and you just won’t go into it.

 Oh my gosh, Dev shared this really cool quote with me , early on, and we were both very clearly, like, just, falling

Yeah.

for the people we were but I think what has been important to us is it’s like okay I love you now and I’m gonna love all the many versions of you but I’m not attached to what those versions are and I hope we evolve and grow in in similar

Mm

but we both recognize that , we can’t, we can’t control that, we can’t control where it goes, I wish I could find it, it’s like a thousand, That’s okay. Yeah, that’s

the idea of like, knowing that there’s going to be different iterations of that person and being open to where that goes. Yeah. And I mean, but fundamentally, there’s a core that, like, you know, there’s a core thing, many things about each other that you

Yes.

And the further you get along, you’ve got this foundation.

 You have this foundation that you’ve built upon and so you can, it feels safe to go on all these other side quests and whatever else because you can always come back to that base or that home or that, yeah.

And you feel supported in that and safe to do

that

mm hmm.

Uh

have you ever been in a relationship where you’ve held on too tight to it?

Ooh, definitely early, early on.

Um, oh man, my first, my first love, it was like one of those on again, off again, and

and

as old as time.

the

 And

it’s like, I, I kind of did that fast tracking of like, Oh, but like, I could see our whole lives played out together. And then so I [00:22:00] ended up, I think, holding on to this idea of What we were and what we

be

be and then actually just missed The ways we were

were Yeah.

and the ways we’d you know You know weren’t actually going to be the best partner so that each other could be their full realized beautiful

selves But yeah, that was, that was a tough one.

And I think that, that relationship culminated in, that was a doozy of a breakup. Uh, maybe a story for, for another

time. Yeah. Breakups. We’re gonna do a

I think we, because I was holding on so tight, then it was like, I almost pushed it so that, It had to end spectacularly

because Yes. I wasn’t

going to let go and

so That was the like looking back on it now I’m like, I don’t wish what happened in our relationship to happen to to us or anyone But we weren’t gonna let it go.

Mm hmm. There’s no other

had to break it

Yeah that to be broken. Yeah What did that remind me of oh another thing that came to mind here is that I’ve Tried to like repackage my love

at times like me like make it make it smaller make it less intimidating We’ll make it less it’s almost like It’s been that

where it’s Like bite sized?

kind of yeah, like you’re you don’t want it like you’re approaching a squirrel You don’t want to scare them

away. So you’re like it look it’s just it’s just tiny little seeds. They’re not they’re not scary I’m not scary. So this kind of

This kind of attempt to repackage it is specifically in this one Relationship where I mean, I don’t know what she thinks about her attachment styles now,

But at the time it definitely felt like a, a kind of avoidant pulling away and so then I was like, well, like, what if my love looks like this instead, like, is that less scary for you?

Or maybe [00:24:00] it could look like this, you know, like, you know what I mean? Like trying to be like, I swear it’s not scary. Like I’ll make it smaller if I need to for you, you

But then also just shape shifting

yourself and like,

not showing up as you.

Whereas I think one of the big lessons is, I’ve found is like, oh, I can show up as a hundred percent me. And that is the, That’s the right

one.

And then, and then when someone sees you as you, because that’s how you’re showing up, and then they, you know, that’s, like, that’s the best kind of

love

to get back.

It’s like, oh.

hmm. So one, one thought that, I don’t know, might be controversial. I don’t know.

So, you’ll hear a lot of experts say, or, , dating advice and people say,

you know, you’re never too much, or like this idea that for the right person, you won’t, you won’t be too

much,

you know. But I have learned that there probably have been times that I’ve kind of been too much. Like, in the sense that, for example, one thing I’ve, I’ve learned over time is, is how to respond to someone rather than react.

Because sometimes, like, it’s not, it’s not that person’s doing that you feel a certain way. You’re being activated for some other, some wound of yours.

Well, I think there’s a difference though. I mean, we all can become dysregulated or, like, show

up in ways that don’t feel congruent to, how we would like to show up, but I think there’s, there’s a difference between approaching a situation and being like, oh, this is just me

and, like, take it or leave it versus Oh, I, I feel this way, but I know my partner doesn’t respond well to this,

and so if we communicate in this certain way, maybe we’ll get

further. Like, I

don’t think you have to unabashedly come in with like, here I am. I think [00:26:00] it’s subtler

to that and showing love for other people is like recognizing who they

and then

then knowing who you are and then you meet and it’s, it’s a

conversation.

Yeah, and rather than, I think, what another mistake we can make in that is assuming that the other, , I think the best, or the healthiest route is to assume that that person had the best of intentions.

Like, you can’t, you can’t, you can’t assume ill intent. They didn’t probably intend to, you know, trigger you in that way or whatnot,

Well, and we can’t always, , show up perfectly to every situation.

Yeah,

I mean, with the right person, you can have a

That, I think that, that’s, that’s what it comes

down

to, and you can, and you have the safety to not get it right all the

time. Yes. And

to, like, yeah, to, to kind of, you know, miss, miss the

Mm hmm.

mean, Dev and I, we’ve had arguments about the silliest of

things, uh, and it’s like, okay.

What happened

there?

what, how did we get here? But we

know that we both, deeply, deeply care about the other. We’re not trying to hurt

them. But sometimes, I mean, I’m stubborn.

yeah, you’re taurus

yeah, I’m a taurus

yeah.

No, that’s the thing. It’s like, you have to understand that you’re going to trigger each other, but you have to both be committed to healing within that relationship and being aware that the other person has wounds too. And then the job is to repair that honestly, repairing is so important to me.

And I think I’ve learned a lot about repair with being a mom because there’s times when I just know, cause as a kid, like, you know, we make up stories, right? Everything when you’re a kid, everything is your fault. You know, parents did this, your fault, parents broke up, your fault. Mom’s mad, your fault. Like you just internalize, it’s kind of a natural thing for the most part to make that part of your narrative.[00:28:00]

And so just being aware of that and aware of the ways I did that, like, even if I’m just grumpy with my daughter, then after hours, I’m like. Wasn’t your fault. I’m tired. I’m grumpy. You didn’t do anything, you know, like even the little things because

I just don’t want that to become a part of her narrative.

And it’s also teaching her to be responsible for her own emotions where it’s like, okay, you didn’t do that to me. You didn’t make me grumpy. This was my own thing going on,

yeah. And I think as we get more comfortable in relationships, we end up doing that more because you’re like, oh, we know they can handle it.

know they can handle it.

True.

And

it’s like, yeah, it’s like. You know, sometimes we’re the worst to the people we love the

most, and it’s like, well, we don’t want

that.

So, yeah, , any, any key takeaways, for our lessons in love?

I

Keep learning? We’re, we’re flawed?

Keep learning. The gift, the, the gifts and lessons are there, you just might not see them yet, right? It’s like, the tears have to dry, sometimes time has to go by until you,, can see it a little more clearly than you could from when you were actually in it.

 This has been another episode of Dear Queer. Just a reminder, we are not actually experts. Any advice given should actually come from our experts who we will bring in from time to time.

Music brought to you by Sean Patrick Brennan, produced by myself, Lauren Hogarth, and your host as always, Alena Papayanis I’m cutting that.