Imposter Syndrome With Alena Papayanis and Erika Casupanan

[00:00:00] What’s up dear queer listeners, producer Lauren popping into your ears to let you know we have a super special episode Coming to you today. Alena was on the happy to see me pod with Erika Kasupinen Shout out survivor winner , they talk all things imposter syndrome Anyway, we hope you like this episode and uh, yeah, feel free to check out the happy to see me pod You On the sonar network or on Instagram.

And if you haven’t already, please share this episode with your pals. We are keen to grow this pod. Grateful for the listeners we have, but excited to see how far we can take it.

Uh, yeah. Hope you have a good week and enjoy this episode with Alena and Erika

Hey everyone, welcome to Happy to See Me, I’m Erika Casupanan. On this podcast, we talk about the things that are overlooked and underestimated. Normally, I have an interview, but today is a special happy hour episode where I have a more casual conversation. And today I am welcoming my friend, Alena Papayanis

welcome. Thank you for having me. I’m really excited. Alena is a professor, writer, speaker, and co host of the Dear Queer podcast, and she shares personal stories about being a recovering people pleaser, coming out as a lesbian later in life, Leaving her straight marriage to live authentically and more. And I’m so happy to have you here today.

I’m so pumped to talk to you. This episode, we are talking about queer imposter syndrome, and I figure [00:02:00] who is better to talk about this than you, Alena. Is this something that you’ve experienced?

I mean, I think it’s hit me the most when I started this podcast recently, to be honest, because suddenly I felt like I was putting myself in a position where I was claiming to know things.

That’s the point at which you are just made, I guess, even more aware of the limitations of what you know, or you just don’t want to claim to know everything. I guess that’s the problem with the worry is that people will perceive you as claiming to know everything or be an expert on everyone’s queer experience when truly all that you can share is based on your own experience and that’s going to differ.

From person to person, even though there might be some things that you do have in common with others.

Yeah, it’s one of those things where when you talk to other people, they’re always saying, no, your experience is valid. Everyone’s on their own journey. What you have to say about your experience. Is enough, but then when you’re in that position, especially I totally relate when you are on the microphone, if you’re talking about it, if you’re on stage, if you’re writing about it, and it’s attributed to your name, you still feel like your experience is not enough.

Yeah, I guess. So the first piece I wrote was about coming out of a straight marriage in my late thirties, and That I didn’t feel any imposter syndrome because I was truly, it was a personal essay about my one experience, right? My, my singular experience. And from that, I did get a lot of people reaching out saying, you know, this is my experience too.

Thank you for sharing it. If anything, then what I had was more like a, a major vulnerability hangover at being so suddenly exposed when it comes time to this podcast. Now it’s like, let’s say we have an episode on relationship advice and I’m not Currently in a relationship. So sometimes you’re like, who am I to be to be saying this, but you know, we all learn lessons along the way and in each new relationship we do and you know, we do get into or just in the dating world too.

So that’s I guess this kind of humility that we have to also go about sharing our own [00:04:00] experience at the same time.

I have listened to every episode of your podcast. If anyone is listening and they haven’t checked out the Dear Queer podcast, make sure you check it out. And even for me, someone who is still navigating this world, just hearing any stories you have to share, even if there’s one thing that I relate to out of, again, experiences that are not my own, I’m like, Oh, okay.

I don’t feel as crazy. Maybe I don’t have to be, like, such an imposter.

So, I don’t know, why do you, where’s your imposter syndrome coming from? Is it because you’ve kind of, so I can, I can see why it would be such a, a sort of scary position to be in, in a way, because, People have gone to know you because of Survivor and then it’s like this other layer to you that you’re now, that you’re now confronting and you’re already a public figure as you’re doing that.

So is that where it’s coming from?

Yeah, I think that me in my personal private life, the life that I live that is not on anyone’s screen. I think I’ve learned to be really self compassionate, and I’ve learned to know that I don’t have to be mean to myself, and that I’m on my own journey, so I think when I think about my life and my experience being queer, just on my own, for the most part, I’m nice to myself, but I think like anyone who is just coming out, there are still those insecurities and those moments where you don’t know, but I think that since I, as you said, am someone who is I don’t know if I want to say public figure, but someone who is recognizable to people in public.

And since I made the decision to come out publicly, and since I have the podcast where I engage with everybody every week, and sometimes my queerness comes up, and then I know that there are people who look to me to talk about my life experience, and that influences them, I think that that’s where I feel that bit of imposter syndrome.

I think especially when I came off of Survivor, I talked a lot about my experience being an Asian woman who was in the workplace and all the lessons I learned and how that helped me on Survivor. And actually, fun fact for all the listeners, if you read my profile [00:06:00] that was in Chatelaine magazine last year, Alena is actually the one who wrote it, so I know that You have been involved in my personal storytelling about being part of a marginalized group and how that helped me.

Now that I came out and I said, Oh, I’m actually also part of this other community. I think that, again, for really flattering and nice reasons, there are people who are interested in the experience I have. And in that way, I’m like, I don’t know, I lived as an underestimated Asian woman my whole life, but being a queer woman is still new to me.

So like. I don’t know if I’m going to be able to inspire and help people in the same way in this part of my life as I have the other, but then again, everybody always tells me, whatever you have to say about your experience is fine. So hopefully, hopefully it’s fine.

Yeah. And I guess something to keep in mind too, is that although you’re sort of early on in your journey, in some sense, you’re also not because any queer person shares those moments in the past that kind of.

Reflection we go through where we’re like, okay, well, what were the signs along the way that I missed or what were the ways I did feel different, but I just couldn’t put my finger on it. And so, in a way, we all share those experiences, even though the current experience might be kind of fresh and new, whether it’s like dating and things like that.

But you’ve been queer the whole time, you just didn’t know it, right? And so there’s that commonality that you can speak to that it’s like, you know, looking back on things where maybe we could have known or maybe we did have a crush now in retrospect.

When I posted on social media about Lesbian Visibility Week, and I talked about that experience when you look back and all of a sudden, all of these memories you’ve had have clicked into place in a different way.

Did you have that experience and was it more of a relief or was it painful or a combination of the two?

I mean, I guess when it first, like, the first moment it came to me was more sort of a broad shift and the way I’ve described it before is like, you know, when you’re at the eye doctor and they put the different lenses on and they’re like, is it this one or this one or this one?

It was literally, it felt like just having that [00:08:00] clear lens on my life. Suddenly put things into place in a different way. Like things suddenly became clear and made sense. And so absolutely like looking back, I can see women. I just thought I was really kind of interested in, but not interested in. Now I can see that it was more of an attraction than just like, I’m curious about them or I think they’re really cool or whatever.

And I can see things too, that, I mean, maybe what I can see with my resistance around things. around queerness. So let’s say at university, there’d be women at the bar, like making out, it would always seem to me, I saw it as a performance for the men around them. And sometimes it was, but sometimes it probably wasn’t too, but those were my own sort of limitations and lenses that I was putting on.

And at the moment, And I’d be curious about it, but I’d also be kind of, like, shaming it at the same time because of my own internalized homophobia, right? So, absolutely, I can see transor, like, being that overprotective friend of my girlfriend’s when we were out. If there were too many guys being, you know, aggressive at the bar, I felt the need to kind of protect them.

But that was probably also partly my queerness, just Just making a bit of a showing.

Yeah, it’s so interesting. I feel like growing up, and even with stuff we’d see in the media, any time there was some type of physical intimacy between women, I always thought it was a performance for men, or it was something that people were just doing for fun, spur of the moment, and it was never anything that real intimacy or real gravity to it.

So again, I just never even crossed my mind that that could be the way that I’m wired. I always thought, doesn’t everybody think women are just objectively more beautiful? That’s just a fact, right? And I said that to some of my friends who are gay men and they just stared at me blankly and I’m like, okay, not everybody thinks that.

Cool.

Yeah, I guess it’s a thing we take for granted and we’re so socialized. Like you said, To see this [00:10:00] femininity as this kind of performance. There weren’t a lot of representations that brought us into these like deep, meaningful representations of relationships between women. It was very much this kind of male gaze that we also grew up with to be socialized, to see other women that way as well.

Yes. Learning about comphet from lesbian tick tock shout out lesbian tick tock for me was like game changer, mind blown. And then I also am so grateful to everybody who would make content about it and talk about it because I realized, okay, this is actually what was happening to me, and then I don’t have to feel guilty that it’s taken me longer.

I don’t even know if I want to say longer. I feel like 34 is very young, but I don’t have to feel guilty that this is the journey that I went on. And I was actually talking to a few friends who came out in their 20s and in their 30s. And we were talking about those moments where things started to fall into place.

And I was like, you know what? I don’t think I would have been ready even a minute earlier than when I came to the realization. I think that it was the perfect time for me.

Yeah. Confident is such a powerful thing. And we’re socialized from the very start and we can see it in the way You know, many parents even talk to their kids still today.

It’s if it’s a little boy, they’re like, Oh, do you have any little girlfriends? Or if it’s a woman coming home from university for the first time, Oh, you know, any boyfriends? It’s, it’s such a powerful thing. Yeah, I totally agree with that. You can’t feel bad for it taking quote unquote longer, but that’s also a phrase I, I sort of struggle with as well, because you really, truly can’t.

Know until you know like every part of your being has to be ready Even if the knowing is somewhere inside you you just might not be ready to see it and look at it until Until you are which might later.

Yeah, and there’s no shame with whenever that happens Whether you are 30 or you are 50 on social media I polled people to ask if they have experienced queer imposter syndrome So I want to share some of the results For people who said, yes, I feel queer imposter syndrome all of the [00:12:00] time, that’s 56 percent of people.

For folks who said, yes, sometimes or it’s starting to subside, that’s 32 percent of people. And then the people who do not experience queer imposter syndrome, it’s only 12%. So that was actually even validating for me to see that, what, 88 percent of people experience queer imposter syndrome. Are there moments when you feel queer imposter syndrome more?

I have to say it’s probably mostly related to the podcast where I feel like I’m putting myself in a position to claim that I know some things, right? We try and make it very obvious that we’re not experts and we do bring in experts when it comes to topics that we do need some help in. So I think that’s just also really important to acknowledge that we know what we know and oftentimes we need help to fill in the gaps.

How about you?

I would say in terms of me professionally, as in the Erika that you see on screen, I’m now starting to have conversations about corporate pride type things. And I’m so flattered that people are interested in having me to represent the queer community for those initiatives. But then in those moments, I’m like, what do you mean?

That I’m the person you wanna spotlight. I’m new here. What do you mean? I get to represent so many people and their experiences. Again, everybody I talk to, they always remind me I only need to talk about my own experience. But I do feel a lot of that responsibility. I think that in terms of my own podcast, I feel a bit more comfortable because I’m like, okay.

I know I’m only going to talk about what I can talk about to the capacity that I have and I try to be upfront about what I’m willing to talk about and what I’m not willing to talk about. I’ve had many, many moments over the last few months when I’ve been invited to be in lesbian publications or queer podcasts or other queer publications where people want to interview me about my story.

And I’ve said no, I think a hundred percent of the time. I know you’ve even [00:14:00] invited me on your podcast and I’m such a fan of your podcast, but I’ve, I think it’s like being in conversation in a long form like that, where I don’t have control about what I’m saying publicly. I feel so scared to do that still.

So I still say no to those things. And a hundred percent of the people I’ve said no to, once I’ve explained why I’m not ready to do it, they’re all. So supportive and they’re like completely understand. We don’t want to put you in a bad position. So thank you to everyone in the queer community for being so supportive.

But I don’t know for some reason when I engage with it publicly, that’s when I feel the most that I have the imposter syndrome.

I guess there’s two levels around imposter syndrome. Like there’s, there are two aspects, I should say. One is this aspect that we’re worried we’re deceiving people, right? And then the other aspect is just that we’re not an expert.

And apparently I was looking up some stuff. Apparently, it is more common for members of minority groups to feel imposter syndrome. Mm hmm. Because if you think about it, and you spoke to this in your Shadowling article too, this, this like, hyper awareness of the way you’re perceived in the world. And so, so if you think about it, it makes sense because it’s not necessarily about your own confidence in what you know, but it’s this awareness of how you might be being perceived.

And actually, I did experience a lot of just regular old imposter syndrome when I first started teaching because there was this fear that like, well, I don’t know everything. Are these students going to think that I know everything and I’m just starting to teach. And as a woman, I felt extra pressure, too, because sometimes, you know, oftentimes people are more critical, and there’s evidence that even on student feedback questionnaires that they are more critical of women.

And so I think there’s just this awareness of how you might be perceived, and that adds to this kind of threat of imposter syndrome also, also like peaking its head in.[00:16:00]

I’m curious about. Situations where you might have experienced queer imposter syndrome that could potentially be more private. So you were talking about how you had imposter syndrome when you were a professor. So after you came out and then continued your work being a professor, did you feel like being new to queerness or any queer imposter syndrome seeped into the way that you presented in that world?

I guess I found a lot of value in bringing that part into my teaching actually, because I think students appreciate the vulnerability of oftentimes, especially if I’m teaching something about gender or sexuality, I will, I will put a link into my article about coming out of a straight marriage or, and I’ll talk about my own journey.

I’ll talk about comma PET or you know, hetero heteronormativity, and that’s the perfect opportunity for me to bring that in. And sometimes I think it’s especially powerful because students have, by that point, usually gone to know me over at least a couple of weeks, they know I have a daughter, and some of them might have a very straight assumption about me.

And so, bringing that up feels like, feels like a really powerful move sometimes in that respect, because it might sort of shake some people’s ground, you know, into seeing that this is a possibility and like, maybe something they never, that never occurred to them. And then on the other hand, I’ll have Often students, at some point during the semester, come up to me who are queer and thank me for coming out and, like, just be really appreciative of seeing, you know, a queer professor in their class.

So it is kind of a vulnerable thing to do, but I feel like it benefits everyone to kind of be upfront about it. So, it’s less, uh, About feeling imposter syndrome there and maybe more about trying to kind of use it as a maybe not necessarily a teaching moment, but kind of like a bonding moment in a way where they see that, oh, she’s, she’s just another human too.

Oh, okay. I like that. I wonder, do you [00:18:00] think that it’s easier to introduce your queerness into existing parts of your life? So within your existing work or with your existing relationships? Or is it easier to be a new queer person and enter queer spaces and queer friendships and queer relationships for the first time?

Oh, I mean, they’re both scary in their own way, because introducing queerness into parts of your life where they might not know about it or it might be new to them, that’s scary in a different way. And there are some times that I won’t share it if it feels like potentially not a safe space for that. I think that’s one thing we get quite good at, too, is reading the room in that sense of, like, how safe is it?

Are there any signs of safety or not? And then entering a queer space when you’re newly queer, I remember when I was first kind of questioning, and I went to the village to Glad Day Bookshop, and I was like, I’m gonna go just like work there and be amongst other queers. And it was actually so terrifying for me to just like go there for the first time and sit there, and I was like, does anyone know?

Do I know? It was like, looking back, it seems really silly, but at the time it was quite intimidating. And Definitely queer events when I was newly queer were often quite intimidating too because, you know, there can be groups of friends that are already established and kind of cliques, you know, you’re still maybe figuring out how you present as well.

And so maybe that’s shifting and, you know. There’s all these, you know, signs that you’re still learning. You’re still kind of learning the ropes. So it can feel like a completely new world that you are just, that you’re just trying to navigate and learn. Have you found that too?

It’s so funny. So many of the friends that I had, whether in high school or university, we’ve all grown up and ended up realizing we were queer.

And then when I was in university, I was friends with a lot of gay men in particular. So I’ve always [00:20:00] been around the queer community, always been surrounded by queer friends. So I was always in queer spaces, even when I identified as straight and I would just be there and be like, I’m an ally. People would come up and talk to me and ask me if I was gay.

And I’m like, Oh, unfortunately I’m just a humble ally. So I developed. a large sense of comfort being there simply as an ally and as almost like a visitor and always having respect for the space I was in and for the people I was with. So I’d been going out in the village in Toronto for years and I was always like, yeah, it’s fine.

I’m just here and straight and here just to be part of the community. Re entering the queer spaces now that I’m a lesbian is so different because I don’t know what it is, even though I’m part of It’s probably similar to your experience at Glad Day, where it’s so silly now that you look back at it, but I remember I’d re enter and I’m like, Oh, now I feel like I’m actually here and I actually need to know what I’m doing, and I’m like, Now do I go around to all the people who before asked me if I was gay and I said I was an ally?

Do I have to like, re identify myself to them? I don’t know. Even though it really, it’s like, Doesn’t need to exist at all. It’s almost like I felt a sense of pressure and responsibility to actually play the role of belonging

there. I can see that because now it just feels like there’s some stake in it, you know, when like you’re actually having to navigate it in a different way.

Now that’s so cute. I’m sure it’s fine. You’re doing great. I feel you around that pressure. You’re like, do I have to go tell everyone now, but you don’t. I felt that part of my imposter syndrome around the podcast has come from things like. Similar in the sense where like, let’s say we’re doing an episode on dating or relationships and I give a particular piece of advice and my fear is like, what if My ex is listening, where I did not do that thing.

Like, are they gonna think, what, a hypocrite? But like, I actually learned it through that relationship and that dating thing. So I almost feel like, should I go back to them and [00:22:00] be like, this is where I learned that? I swear I learned that lesson and I don’t do that now. So there is some like, interpersonal kind of queer imposter syndrome around that.

You feel like you have to go like set the record straight.

There are some times I don’t really talk a lot about my personal life and personal relationships publicly. That’s a boundary that I want to keep up. There are times where I feel tempted to talk about Relationships I had with men and how, in hindsight, there were probably signs that I wasn’t fulfilled in previous relationships.

But then I think, oh, if that person was to catch wind of that, would that be something that could be hurtful to them? But then also, honestly, if men that I’ve been with in the past feel some discomfort, I can live with that, right? Some of them deserve it, so that’s fine. Yeah,

that’s fine. We can answer that.

And I think that that’s also why I don’t like to talk about particular people and particular experiences publicly, because again, it’s like, so much of our personal learning is so intertwined with other people, and it’s a challenge to figure out what’s the boundary between what you can share where it’s only you versus where it involves other people.

And I think that that’s probably also what makes it hard because There’s this perception that coming into your queerness does involve other people.

That’s true, and it is a balance. I’ve had to walk that as well, and I still do have to kind of walk that line in my writing where all you can really share is your experience of a relationship or, or whatever it is.

I get the goal there is to To be kind, as kind as you can, but honest at the same time and reflective. It doesn’t hurt to be self aware and even sometimes maybe a little gently self deprecating because we’re all learning and we all make mistakes and you have to kind of be gracious about it.

Mhm. That’s the thing.

I think we all have to be empathetic to everybody in terms of where they’re at. And even, hey, men I’ve dated before, I know you were doing the best you could do at that time. You could have done better, but you were doing the best you could do. So I can empathize. Yeah. When I [00:24:00] asked people about situations or things that make them feel queer imposter syndrome, a lot of people responded And felt a lot of queer imposter syndrome when it came to labels and the pressure to label yourself and labels changing.

Did you have a challenge in terms of picking out the label for yourself?

I guess early on, maybe it was the biggest struggle around, around that when I was just kind of questioning. So I, I did use the word questioning for quite a while at the beginning because that’s truly the phase I was in and I needed to use that until I was ready to, to fully embrace a different one.

But I’m not too, like I wasn’t too worried about I’ll use queer, I’ll use lesbian, I’ll use gay even, like, I’m pretty fluid around, around the label where my struggle lay was more around like gender stuff and I just recently added they as one of my pronouns as well. So she or they, and that was more, I had been thinking about that for probably a few years now, but I did have fears that I wasn’t like they enough until I was really able to just realize that this is something that as long as I’ve probably also been struggling with my queerness, I’ve also been having a conversation with myself about.

Gender identity and I’ve never felt all that feminine femininity to me I was always admiring women who just it seemed so natural and comfortable to them Makeup hair things they’d wear it just I could never do it And I always felt like a clumsy female like I I just couldn’t I just couldn’t do it And nor did I really want to in the same way as I was comfortable in, like, different clothes.

I was wearing my dad’s stuff. Like, I liked big oversized stuff and I was very much a tomboy growing up as well. And so it was more for me about coming to terms with that with accepting my sort of vainness because I didn’t feel like I was allowing myself to on time.

Did you feel like when you [00:26:00] started questioning your sexuality You needed to change the way you dressed.

I’ve had many people reach out to me saying they don’t know if they dress masculine enough. They don’t know if they dress too feminine. Was this something you were worried about?

It was because I was, I was still kind of trying to perform femininity in the way that I had been socialized to. I think I was tomboyish for a long time, and then I hit university and really felt more pressure and like male gaze kind of thing to.

To look a certain way. And I lived out for a long time. I definitely did start shifting that, but early on, I was still trying to perform femininity in the way that I had always been, you know, expected to, and thought I should. So definitely over time, the way I’ve dressed has shifted and embrace the more masculine side.

And actually, in fact, it wasn’t until I allowed myself to come back to that kind of masculine tomboyishness that. I could then actually be okay with more feminine stuff again too. It’s like I needed that base or that grounding in my masculinity to then be able to be more comfortable sometimes maybe presenting a little more feminine as well.

But yeah, it’s been a struggle. And people have to know too that sometimes, some people’s ranges is much wider than others. So some people might feel really feminine one day, and far more masculine the other day, whereas other people might have a much tighter range in terms of what they’re actually comfortable with.

Have you shifted

anything? I didn’t change the way that I dress to be more gay, but I think that when I look back, I don’t think I ever dressed particularly straight either. I think I always just dressed a little eccentric. I think that there’s two major things that I consider. One is my hair. Obviously haven’t changed my hair, but when I look back in my twenties, I always had my long, long natural colored hair.

It was like down to my waist. And I always got so many compliments on my hair. Even when I was younger, I remember I would go back and forth between having short hair, similar to what I have now. And then my [00:28:00] long hair. And then whenever I would have my long hair back, all the straight men in my life would be like, you’re so pretty with your long hair that when I was in my twenties, I thought that I needed to have long hair in order to be attractive to men.

And I remember when I went on the journey of slowly cutting my hair, well, no, I didn’t slowly cut my hair. I just cut off 10 inches of my hair and then started to dye it more and more purple. And I remember. Once I reached a point when my hair was fully purple, I looked in the mirror and I was like, I don’t think I’m guy pretty anymore.

And I remember being like, Okay, I’m okay with that. I’ll just keep going because I like the way I look. I think my hair in hindsight, to me was a hint, even though I’ve had people say, My purple hair was a hint to everyone publicly that I was gay and I was like, listen, I wasn’t ever trying to secretly communicate anything to anyone.

I really did not know. So that was one. But then I’ve always, not always, but for the last maybe 10 years, I always had long nails that were always done. And after I came out publicly, I had some people say to me like, Oh, I always kind of thought you were queer, but your nails are what threw me off. So then I remember that got me a bit in my head about my nails.

Cause I’m like, I love my nails. Even when I was on survivor, I had nail polish on when we make our flag at the merge tribe and we did painting with our hands. I painted nail polish onto my nails. I love having my nails done, but I remember getting in my head about nails where I’m like, Oh, let me try it where.

Only the two nails are shorter, or let me try it where, on my dominant hand, all the nails are short, and on my other hand, all the nails are long. Right now, I actually haven’t had my nails done for a while. Also, you save a lot of money by not doing that, but my nails, like, really got me in my head for a while.

The last few months.

That’s interesting. So you’re still trying to figure out what’s the, what the final length and polish is. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I’m on a nail journey now. I love that phrase though saying like die pretty because like, yeah, I definitely related to that. There was this man that I had a crush on years [00:30:00] ago and I remember looking at him and thinking like explicitly in my head that I’m not feminine enough for him.

Like I could imagine who this feminine. Girlfriend he would go for and and want and I’m just like I am I’m not that and I I can’t even pretend To be that so I totally relate to that.

Do you feel like now that you’ve come out later that your gaydar has changed at all?

Oh, yeah, definitely. I feel like the more embedded in the community you get to, just the easier it is to pick up signs.

And honestly, I mean, isn’t it just nice to think that everyone’s a little bit gay or has the potential? There’s so many bi women out there, too. Pansexual women. I think it’s actually quite safe to assume that a lot of people out there are. Or at least it’s probably made me more likely with women, actually, that they would be gay in some way.

I even see it in when I’m looking at, like, I have a nine year old daughter, and I’ll see kids on the playground, and like, tomboys, little tomboy girls, and I’m just like, There’s more little gays out there, and I can’t wait for them to grow up and hopefully grow into their, into their queerness. Has that been a struggle for you?

I don’t know. Even before I came out, I think that since I was around so many queer people and I had so many queer fans, I think I just didn’t care. In the most non judgmental way, I was like, I don’t care who’s gay, I don’t care who’s straight, just, whatever. Everyone can just be whatever they want. What’s interesting is I think that now, I almost operate on the assumption that everybody is a little gay, and maybe it’s just the type of people I surround myself with, but now, instead of having gaydar, it’s almost like I have straightdar, where I’m just like, oh, that person is straight.

I’m like, that is a straight person.

Totally. That’s so funny. Yeah, it’s, it’s totally flipped the switch. I love that.

Sometimes when I’m around very straight people, I’m just like, oh my gosh, I haven’t been in this situation in a long time. And then I feel like I can reach back into the vault. I’m like, okay, okay, let me like pull out what I need to do to navigate straight spaces.

I remember [00:32:00] how to do this. I’m good. That’s so funny.

Yeah, I find that too. If you, because especially if you’re surrounding yourself, or if you’re in the queer community a lot, you’re going to events that where a lot of queer people, it is easy actually to forget that the straight world. exists until you find yourself in that space again.

Speaking of the worlds that we surround ourself with, there was somebody who had a question, so I’m curious if you have some advice to share. Someone asked about how they feel comfortable being queer in online spaces, but not being comfortable being queer in real life and around childhood friends. Do you have advice on how someone can navigate this?

I mean, that’s the beauty of online communities, and we know that there’s also an ugly side of online communities, but the beauty of online communities is that you can express yourself and you can find other people who are going through the same things. Hopefully, they can make more of those online spaces translate to real life, like in real life.

community and events and friends. So if they can do that, that’s a great idea. In terms of childhood friends, that’s an interesting one. I mean, I feel like a lot of queer people might experience this, especially when they’re first coming out, is that they’re going to tend towards their queer friends. their queer friends more.

Just because, I mean, it’s part of that, like, affirming process that you need to do to feel like you’re part of something, to feel like your identity is validated, to feel like you’re with people who understand you, and that you don’t have to explain things to. So I’d say, like, don’t feel guilty if you are leaning more into your queer friends and left into those people.

who maybe don’t understand you as much, or you feel just more awkward around, I think that’s a very natural thing to do. Real life in general, I mean, it always helps to have a little crew of your own, even if it’s just one friend that is going through the same thing. Like, I had [00:34:00] some friends early on that the biggest thing we had in common was that we were early on in our journey.

And so then we would go to events together, or we would talk about our dating life, and you know, kind of try and navigate that together. So, all it takes is a few people who, You are aligned with to make it a lot smoother and will make it a lot easier for you to then venture out into those real life spaces and try and navigate them and don’t put pressure on yourself to like, you know, meet a ton of people at every event you go to or ask people out on dates or anything.

It’s going to take a while to just feel comfortable in that space. And just like, look at the small wins, like you went, you did it, maybe you talked to one person, maybe you felt a little more comfortable this time than you did last time, or maybe you found an event that felt more aligned with the things you want to do, just, you know, note those little small wins along the way, I’d say,

you know what, you brought up a point that I think that I wasn’t really prepared for how much existing relationships would shift around after coming out and how You do find yourself being more drawn to being around your queer friends because you need that validation and what I didn’t realize is around my friends who are straight.

Even though everybody was so supportive of me when I came out, I just felt so drawn to be around people who had that shared experience with me and who, as you said, I didn’t have to explain anything. If anything, I was saying that probably in the past would have been scary for me to say out loud. In these spaces, it was like, yep, totally understand.

I went through that. Here’s how I got through that. It has created moments where, I think there’s been discomfort in my existing relationships. It’s something I’m still working through now, but I’m just hopeful that everyone is understanding and gives the right patience for that. But it’s, yeah, a very specific part of the journey.

Yeah, and I don’t think straight people realize what it, like, it really is kind of a different, a new adolescence you’re going through, right? It’s all, things are [00:36:00] all new again. It kind of does rewind you back in time in some ways too, and it’s new emotions. It’s a new kind of universe you’re navigating.

Straight people don’t have that in the same way. Maybe there’s different ways that they do, but not, I don’t know. I can’t think of a parallel example truly at the moment where things are new again. You’re having these emotions that you didn’t have before. It’s like destabilizing in, in a way that they might not understand.

And I guess one specific way that I struggled too, was I would just find that I worried that my, I don’t know, dating dramas or whatever I was going through. I worried that it would feel kind of trivial to them. Yeah, you know, especially if they’re established or they have a partner, they have kids and their lives are very much the same.

Most of the time, it felt like I was on a different level of existence, kind of like a little kid, like a teenager again, being like, Oh guys, what about my story? You know? And so that I could share more with my queer friends rather than my sort of straight or like older friends, because it just felt like.

I worried that it would just be trivial and not as important to them. Meanwhile, it was something really important I was going through.

Yeah. Another thing I learned is there are so many different dynamics when it comes to queer relationships. So then there would be times when I’d be confiding in my straight friends.

And again, they would be showing up the best way they could to support me and give advice. But then I’d realize, Oh, you’re giving me advice that is kind of based on hetero tropes of relationships, but they just don’t apply here because all of the dynamics are so different. And it’s again, not me trying to paint my straight friends in a negative light or anything, but it’s more so it was kind of like a bit of a heartbreak for me because I realized, oh, I’m no longer able.

To engage with this person in this relationship in the same way, because unfortunately, we just don’t understand each other anymore. So there’s like a bit of grief in those moments, too.

Yeah, absolutely, [00:38:00] because they won’t understand the particular dynamics, or like you said, the advice they’re giving just doesn’t really apply.

I feel like a lot of straight people, too, if you’re talking about, like, for example, you know, it’s really common in the queer community for people to be friends with their exes. And like, that’s pretty unheard of in the straight world, especially if it’s, you know, an ex girlfriend. There’s this element of jealousy that is much more sort of prominent in straight relationships and like you said, all these sort of heteronormative tropes.

And it’s something you have to allow yourself to grieve that those relationships are going to shift and there’s, there’s going to be a different, a different dynamic there that might not serve you in all the ways you need at the moment.

To build on this, a lot of the questions or the comments that I got from people around there, Queer imposter syndrome was around how they felt like they just didn’t have enough queer friends.

Have you received good advice in the past when it comes to making queer friends, and what was it? I

mean, luckily, there’s a lot of queer events and like queer clubs that are out there. So, if you know, you like cycling, there’s a queer cycling club. If you like hiking, if you like running, Breeding, like there’s, there’s so many queer clubs out there and depending on the city that people are in, that’s going to be less or more.

So I know it might be more of a struggle. I have at least a handful of friends who I met by first going on a date or two with them. And then we just ended up being friends instead. So that is one bonus, I’d say, to the queer community is that someone doesn’t end up being a love interest. They could end up being like one of your good friends, which is, which is a really sweet thing.

I guess some advice around that I would maybe give is that it’s going to take a while probably for that to stabilize in terms of who your people are in the queer community, because like I said before, some of your early friends might, you know, the main thing you have in common with them might just be that you’re all newly out.

Along the way, you might realize [00:40:00] that there are other values you don’t share or that you’re not aligned in. So some of those friends might not end up being your long term people. And so friends might come in and out of your life, and that can be hard and painful. But the hope is that if you can at least find a few people that you feel closely aligned with and that support you, then you’re really lucky.

You know, because it can’t feel like a lonely thing.

See, I was really lucky because I had mostly queer friends anyways before coming out. I basically got to hang out with a lot of my same friends and the things we would do just became a little bit more gay. That’s amazing. Very lucky. I mean, I’ve been friends with you since back when I was straight, so I’m like, oh, I can just hang out with Alena in a different context now.

True. I’ve been able to make friends. And I think it, again, is just from going out to things. I’ve been fortunate through podcasting, I’ve been able to make queer friends. I remember once somebody said something, it was along the lines of, all queer people have experienced some level of feeling isolated or misunderstood.

And because of that, queer people tend to be more empathetic and to be more open to different types of connection because we know what it’s like to not feel that type of connection. So because of that, More often than not, if you reach out to someone and want to be their friend, they’re going to at least be receptive to explore that.

I think that that’s something that I always keep in mind, where I’m like, okay, this person looks interesting, I’m just gonna go and talk to them because they probably could be wanting connection as well.

Yeah, absolutely. To not be shy about that is a great, is a great point because like you said, if anything, we understand the feeling of being alone or being an outsider.

And so I think you’re right. I think we are a lot more likely to kind of bring someone under our wing and try and connect them. Even if we don’t end up maybe connecting with them as good friends, if we can bring them into a circle where they might find people, I think that people will really appreciate that.

A hundred percent. Another thing that people brought up a lot in terms of when they felt Queer Impostor Syndrome, it [00:42:00] was a lot of, I think that I’m queer, but I’ve never had a girlfriend. Or I think that I’m queer, but I’ve never had this specific sexual experience. I think that there’s sometimes this perception that you need to go through the checklist of certain things.

in order to be queer or you need a partner or a certain level of dating experience or a relationship and to have that other person validate your queerness. How do you respond to people who feel like they might be stuck in that loop?

Well, there’s a few things there. One thing which I said earlier to you is that we’ve all like you and I both share this kind of this history of.

Hidden queerness, right? And now we can look back and see those moments where, okay, actually that’s what I was feeling then. So all of those people probably share that one thing, and that is like a fundamental queer experience, right? So that puts you in the club right away, right? I think we’re our harshest critics, right?

And so those people might be judging themselves in ways that actually other people aren’t, you know? There is no one checklist that everyone is necessarily gonna check all the boxes off on. You And I think part of the beauty of the queer community is that we all kind of bring these different experiences to the table.

And we’re not asking everyone to be exactly the same, right? Because who wants that anyways? It’s like, that’s kind of the beauty is that we all bring different experiences to the table. And it’s going to look different for everyone. Everyone’s journey is different and they’re all valid.

I once had somebody say to me, and this is advice that has really resonated with me, in those moments where you wonder, are you queer enough?

Have you had enough queer experiences? Do you look queer enough? Do you consume enough queer music in any way, wondering if you’re queer enough? Someone said to me, if you take a queer person and you put them in a cabin in the middle of the woods where they don’t talk to anybody else, they’re only going to be wearing burlap or whatever is there, are they still a queer person?

So if you take away all the external stuff, if they know who they’re [00:44:00] attracted to, are they still a queer person? And I’m like, yeah. And then I realized I’m like, okay, the external stuff is great. And of course, that’s part of life and it enriches our life. But all of that doesn’t define you. It’s just knowing who you are.

That’s a great point. I think you’re absolutely right. It’s all about. It’s all about your identity and authenticity. All the stuff on the outside is just, it’s just superficial.

Do you have any outstanding advice for anyone who is experiencing queer imposter syndrome?

If they can think about the journey they’re on in a broader scale, I think it’s always helpful to look back.

Like we said, you know, looking back to the first time I went to a queer space and, or I went to a queer space and I was, you know, all uncomfortable and the first time I might have gone to an event and not know how to dress. And just if you look at like the path that you’re on, if you can reflect on those moments and see how far you’ve come.

Also don’t forget to kind of give yourself little pats on the back along the way for how far you’ve come in living authentically and really what a powerful important thing that is for you to do and how it does get easier in the sense of the more you are yourself, the easier it is to be yourself. Just to have compassion for yourself and grace for yourself for those little moments when you might feel insecure.

Just know that everybody feels that way and that what’s important is that you are authentic to yourself.

Yes. I love that. Essentially we’re undergoing a major identity shift. So of course you’re going to have these moments of discomfort and it’s totally normal. And honestly, Everybody feels it. And I think you brought up this point earlier, but it’s also, queer is not a monolith.

There is not a right way to be queer. There are not certain things you need to check off in order for you to be able to enter the community. Every experience and every expression of someone’s queerness is valid. And whatever you are bringing to the table at this exact moment is queer enough. But I still

feel imposter syndrome for saying that.

That’s so funny, Ollie. [00:46:00] Yeah, but absolutely, and like, and it can shift even. Let’s say you just started dating women, and then you do find a man attractive again, and you date a man. That doesn’t make you less queer. Right? So also those kinds of shifts or shifts in gender in terms of presenting more feminine or masculine, like it is a fluid thing as well, right?

So that’s part of the beauty of it is how huge of a spectrum it is. So like you said, every experience is valid. Yes,

I think that’s the perfect way to end off. Alena, can you tell people about the Dear Queer podcast?

Yeah, absolutely. So, we just started it a few months ago, and it’s for, like, people can write in questions and comments if they have it, but basically it’s just a venue for us to have conversations about things that we love to talk about that are important to us, whether it be friendships, or love and dating, or people pleasing.

In some cases, there are queer experiences specifically, But in other cases, they’re just common experiences that we have as human beings just trying to, like, get through life,

you know? I love it. I’ve listened to all the episodes. There have been so many little tidbits. I’m like, huh, I feel less crazy and I feel less alone.

So thank you so much for doing that, Pod. If people want to keep up with you, and your writing, and your speaking, and the other work you do, where can they do that? If people

want to find my writing, they can go to my website, Alenapapianis. com. They can find me on Instagram at ampapaya, basically. So, A M P A P A Y A.

They can find our podcast on Instagram as well at dear. queer. podcast.

Alena, thank you so much for having this vulnerable conversation with me today. I couldn’t have thought of anybody else I would have wanted to have this conversation with.

Thank you so much for having me.

And if anybody is listening and they know someone who would love to hear more about queer imposter syndrome, please share this episode with them.

And if you haven’t already, please subscribe rate

This has been another episode of Dear Queer. Just a reminder, we are not actually experts. Any advice given should [00:48:00] actually come from our experts who we will bring in from time to time.

Music brought to you by Sean Patrick Brennan, produced by myself, Lauren Hogarth, and your host as always, Alena Papayanis I’m