Gender Series Part 1

[00:00:00] Today on do your queer. We have an extra special treat for y’all. This is going to be an ongoing series for dear queer on gender. Uh, for us, gender is something that can change and evolve. That we struggle with and in our best moments, , can give us euphoria. It’s something, whether we like it or not, can be both deeply personal.

And also one of the first things folks try and clock about us. , so please. Join us for some highlights from our conversations. , with past guests about gender and what it means for each of that. Today you will be hearing from relational psychotherapist, Dillon Katrycz and resident neuroscientist, Dr.

Mandy, Wintink we hope you enjoy.

So Dylan, welcome to our series on gender. Um, we would just love to start off, , by having you tell us

where, , what you are feeling with your gender currently today.

Mm.

Great question.

Hot

pink.

Um.

Um,

Spoiler. The t shirt I’m wearing right now. Um. Yeah. Like. Oof. What is it today? Who knows? Such a tough question. Um, you know, I’m feeling like a little soft butch, a little, um, [00:02:00] playful, a little, uh, free. So, what does that fall into? You tell me.

Um,

Um,

yeah.

I

you always, do you have,

do you feel like you have

a good relationship with, your

expression of gender and, and how that shows

think most of the time, I certainly have, like, a various So, I mean, going way back, I

grew up, like most of us, in a super conventionally heteronormative environment. Um, and you know, I remember as a kid, any time I had to participate in activities that were divided between boys and girls, I was a bit disappointed, because most of my friends were girls, and I felt like I had to kind of, like, steal myself, or, like, put on a bit of a mask to, like, protect myself.

prepare and like blend in with the boys. Um, so I always knew I was somehow different than other boys. Classic statement. Um, but I wasn’t sure exactly why, only that it was not good. Um, Um, you know, based on the reactions from people around me. So, you know, this was the beginning of a bit of a gender shame that I have spent a lot of time unpacking and, be doing so for the rest of my life, though, the general trajectory is it gets easier. so, you know, I think one thing I’ve really learned about my experience is that. It’s kind of living proof of how deeply intertwined gender and sexuality are.

You

know,

it was only once I was in

my later teenage years that I felt the courage and the kind of like rebellion within me to stop censoring

myself and like let go of my vigilance around maintaining my sort of passability as straight, which Not that solid in the first place.

Um, and you know, that’s when I started to feel my own kind of sense of like gender euphoria. [00:04:00] Um, just, you know, I’ve always said that heterosexuality is a main tenet of conventional masculinity,

love

feel like I should say again, like heterosexuality

is a main tenet of conventional masculinity. So to

be anything other than heterosexual is to fail at conventional masculinity

and is

already. You know, um,

feminized or queered.

Would you talk to us a little bit about gender euphoria? I think that is a, a,

really beautiful aspect

for those of us who fall along the Gender spectrum

yeah. Gender euphoria is that beautiful moment where usually after a long time of, you know, repressing yourself, your presentation, kind of curating yourself, Um, to, to match other people’s expectations or to not raise any sort of suspicion, like actually feeling like what’s on the outside matches what’s on the inside, to put it as simply as I can.

Um, you know, usually after a very long time of not allowing yourself to do that or not feeling free or safe to do that. So, you know, when, when,

Yeah, it’s that alignment that is just like,

ah, a weight off my shoulders, you know, not maintaining like who’s perceiving me this way and how and you know, like just freedom and accuracy and

authenticity.

I love the, I love witnessing the gender euphoria of people who have just had top surgery.

Mm.

That’s like the most beautiful thing, to see people posting their, their new chests and their like, scars and their, just, it’s beautiful. Like, you know, like no matter the physical discomfort, it’s just like the beaming faces

of, of like this

finally moment, you know, where they’re [00:06:00] like, finally,

it’s just so beautiful.

Yeah.

Such a relief, literally. know, like,

it’s,

yeah. I’ve worked with several

clients who have

had top surgery over the course of our time together, and, um, it’s been a really, really beautiful thing to witness, and just to see the shift the

joy that comes from,

And so what are some common struggles you see in your practice around gender? Like, what are the questions

people are asking themselves or, or how that’s sort of

manifesting in their lives when they’re, when they’re questioning things or feeling discomfort around their

yeah. I mean, I work mostly with folks from the LGBTQIA plus community, and, yeah. You know, I think mostly for my queer clients, the struggle is often around the discovery and exploration of their authentic gender and healing from the forcing of prescriptive roles that didn’t fit before. Um, so, you know, I would say that’s the general gist of like what I see in terms of, um, people were dealing with gender in psychotherapy. Yeah. Different for straight clients,

but you know, that’s, that’s for another

podcast.

hmm.

It kind of touched on this a

little bit, but, uh, you know, so, uh, about things feeling aligned and why is it, I mean, it may seem obvious, but why is it so important that our felt sense of gender aligns with our outward presentation in the way we show up in the world? I often feel like, you know, I put on, You know, even just like this vest, and it’s like, okay, this is, I’m putting on, people are going to

perceive me in this certain way, and that feels good.

Like, why is that

so

important, though, these, like, I don’t know, armors and ways we present to the

world?

yeah, I mean, when our outward [00:08:00] presentation doesn’t reflect our felt sense of gender, we tend to be perceived and treated in ways that don’t quite and it creates a kind of fracture between how we

feel we are being perceived and who we really are, who we feel ourselves to be. Um, I mean, that said, gender is an ever shifting interface of presentation and perception, where the rules and meanings change depending on the context, and we ultimately only have so much control over how others are assessing our gender.

Um, you know, it’s often a privilege for trans and gender non conforming people to have their gender accurately perceived by others, right? So it’s important that we not reduce gender to outward

presentation.

Uh, sometimes we alter our gender

presentation for safety. Um, But I mean, to return to your question, the experience of having our

gendered self align with our outward presentation just keeps us more intact in our interactions with others and can provide an, I mean, yeah, like gender euphoria, you know, like this feels right.

There’s just a felt sense of okay ness versus the kind of struggle or anxiety that we’ve experienced in the past.

Um, yeah.

And what, uh,

what sort of advice do you have for people who are just starting off

on a kind of gender questioning journey? Are there things you might suggest to them?

Yeah. I, mean, I

I, I mean, I say

welcome

and, you know, you’re in good company.

and there are all sorts of resources and supports and connections and

people. waiting for you should you choose to seek them

out. Um, definitely normal for this process to feel scary or overwhelming. Gender has fundamental implications in our lives, our social existence, our self understanding, right?

So there are a lot of identities, terms, and information out there. I would say, try and lead [00:10:00] with your gut, your sense of intuition, you know, trying to fit yourself into other people’s molds is unlikely to feel completely satisfying. So, you know, take inspiration. Notice when you recognize yourself in other’s expression of gender, you know, notice when gender things don’t feel so good and just gather all these moments up to discover your relationship to your gender from the ground up.

You know, people starting to question their gender, you know, just keep in mind that gender can change and that’s okay. So some people have a very stable experience of their gender over the course of their lifespan, while others experience shifts and changes over time.

Um, you know, those are all very personal experiences and they’re all valid and okay.

And also beautiful. I know when I started kind of playing more with, , masculinity and presented, you know, cut my hair and like, started presenting more androgynous and, and I’ll use the word mass because that feels good to me. Um, but I actually in doing that found myself more able to access the feminine sides of me.

I actually felt more comfortable because where before I used to kind of tamp down my femininity and was afraid of it. By embracing my masculinity and those sides of myself, I, I, I felt more free to, you know, dip into my, my, my

feminine sides and it

was really fun and beautiful.

Yeah.

That’s so funny, I felt the

exact same thing. I, yeah, I recently, well not recently, but in one of my essays I wrote about that, that it was this idea that it was only once I, like I, uh, growing up, I was going into my dad’s closet and wearing his, his coats and jackets, like I liked that kind of oversized, big, it felt like this, uh, It just felt comfortable to me, it felt like, right to me, and then over the years, like, I, you know, that’s, I’m pretty [00:12:00] sure my mom, like, gave some of them away, and I was like, what?

Like, maybe she didn’t like me wearing them, I don’t know, we never had a conversation about it, but, I always kind of tended towards that, and then in university got quite femme, kind of, cause it was more, uh, feminine. You know, attuned to the male gaze at the time. But yeah, it was only once I was like, re accepting of that masculine side that I was like, Yeah, why not?

A little bit of nail polish doesn’t hurt. But before, you know, before I was able

to actually like,

own that masculine side, I would have

felt

like that

was too, too femme

for

me to be comfortable in. It’s a

balance.

yeah, It’s like you have.

to,

um, protect, uh, at least my experience of it was like I had to protect my tomboy masculine side and so I rejected all of the

that beauty.

and then in only embracing it and like feel and dressing and like presenting in a way that felt aligned with me that I could then, um, Bring those other things back because I think gender is, it’s like this beautiful mash of everything and it shifts day to day

and that’s, that’s what’s

fun.

and That’s

a great point

you brought up Dylan to about because some people the shift is more extreme from day to day and so that is great advice you gave there to to to welcome that because that might be really confusing for someone who Maybe initially feels more masculine and then feels very starts to feel more their feminine side But then kind of goes back and may be confused by that like how can I feel both such extremes?

But so I

think that’s a really

great point You To, to make that they’re all part of a cohesive whole. It doesn’t have to be one or the other, and it can change quite often.

exactly. Change can be part of authenticity.

 We are back with our fave We are back with our fave neuroscientist. Mandy Wintink. And, uh, yeah, we’re going to open up into our gender conversation and. Mandy, how would you [00:14:00] best describe your gender now? And, uh, if you could kind of let us know how you got there and just, yeah, whatever you feel comfortable sharing with us.

Oh, absolutely. Um,

I

mean, I

think, you know, when

Elena, when you shared that you’ve recently adopted, they,

um, that’s kind of, you know, it’s a similar.

process where I’m like, I’m not they enough. I’m not queer

enough. So I, you know, I’ve been

in, I feel like I at queer from like a few different angles. So I’ve been in

same sex relationships.

I definitely,

like I

identify as

bisexual or

whatever. Um, I’m definitely not heterosexual.

Um,

That was something that was a different kind of journey.

Um, you know, sexuality was pretty easy.

I was playing

hockey. Everyone was kind of, you know,

excited. And I was

like, oh, this is fun. I definitely and

my very

first sex was with a female and I hadn’t even thought of that as being, um,

An expression of my

sexuality when I was in like grade six,

um,

I had a sexual female relationship and

then Yeah, but I, it was sort

of in this other camp of like thinking and all this other

stuff, but

definitely, uh, not heterosexual,

but

that was easy.

That was just

like,

yep, this feels good. I love this woman and everything.

Um, but in terms of gender.

It

felt like it was much more difficult. And I remember when everyone started

putting pronouns

on their emails, I didn’t do that.

And, you know, I’m usually, you know, right

there at the head of the curve things, and there was something holding me back.

And I was,

felt

really bad because I wanted to be an ally, but I also didn’t, couldn’t put them down for some reason.

And

then I

realized it

was because I didn’t want to put she, her.

And

so that was the point where I started using they,

And I started doing it on my talks,

like on my lectures, I would

start my university classes, putting my pronouns,

so I could

actually discuss it and [00:16:00] mention it, not just put it on my email.

And.

And

that felt good, but it also felt like I’m not queer enough. Like, you know, I present very feminine sometimes. Um, and so it didn’t feel like I was allowed to do that.

And

then my

next big light bulb moment was when someone used the pronouns they, for me,

even

now, like I just, it makes me want to cry because it was Like gender

euphoria. It was like totally like I

was seen, it was from the 519 center for some posts that we had made for my company. And they referred to me as they, and I was just like,

like,

it was

orgasmic. Like it was just absolutely amazing.

And I

still get that feeling when people use

it, which doesn’t

happen often because I do they, she,

but

some people do, and it feels absolutely amazing.

And that was my. Defining moment where I’m like, there’s something real here. Like this, this felt too good to be, um, like I am. They

like, I am, I don’t know what

it all looks like. I don’t, you know, gender isn’t thing from a lot of different angles,

but I

know that I am not, I’m not cisgendered.

I know

that.

And I don’t know what to call it, but that’s how

I feel. And so that’s where I

am right now.

And I don’t know where it’s going to end

up. I think part of that is, you know, I was born in 1975.

We didn’t have a lot of, options back then. And us Gen Xers are

still trying to sort out

how do

we manage

this among

the millennials and the

Gen Zers who can adopt it

pretty easily.

I think

think that’s part of why I love the word queer. Cause it like encompasses my sexuality and my gender in this kind of beautiful way. Right. You know, I was definitely the, you know, I think, um, subbed the, you know, I was born in the eighties and, you know, sub word, the word tomboy for,

Oh yeah.

The number of tomboys, the number of tomboys in like a

neurodiverse,

uh, umbrella [00:18:00] too. Yeah.

Yeah. And it’s this thing where there are so many aspects of, female traits and things that I identify with and love, um, and connect to with other, other people. But it’s also been this, like, I also was just never, like, I am not, Like a, a capital W woman.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So then coming, coming to that has, has, has felt so good and, um, yeah, even, um, that same kind of euphoria of, uses they, them pronouns on me , I feel more and more myself And so I think, um, if people are, are thinking about that stuff, it’s like you just got to keep leaning into the stuff that feels you and gives you those euphoria yeah, they’re the best.

 Just by using someone’s pronouns we can give them that like, just like whole body good buzz feeling and it’s when people have trouble with it in a way, figuring out, you know, they’re like, Oh, I don’t want to mess it up.

It’s like, you literally have the opportunity to just make someone’s day a day, figure it out.

Yeah, totally.

I love this for you. Um, are you, are you, are you going to be doing email signatures? Are you going to introduce yourself to your students? Oh yeah, maybe. Am I throwing too much at you? No,

no, no, it’s okay. No, I mean, I think I’ve changed a couple, um, tags on Instagram or things where I’ve added it. Yeah. Um, but yeah, it’ll, it’ll be probably part of discussions along the way students my writing and stuff for sure.

 This has been another episode of Dear Queer. Just a reminder, we are not actually experts. Any advice given should actually come from our experts who we will bring in from time to time.

Music brought to you by Sean Patrick Brennan, produced by myself, Lauren Hogarth, and your host as always, Alena [00:20:00] Papayanis I’m cutting that