Late Bloomer Autism Edition

Alena: [00:00:00] I’d like being around people but not having the responsibility of the other people  

Lauren: Hi. Happy Thursday.

Alena: Happy

Lauren: Wink.

Alena: Wink. Um, so we’ve talked about late blooming or the idea of, you know, coming up later in life. That was one of our first few episodes, and I have had a more recent other late blooming experience of [00:01:00] getting a, an autism diagnosis and. I think if it’s okay with you, I wanna start with reading just the intro paragraph of an essay that I had published in a magazine called The New Quarterly.

Lauren: Let’s see, this thing

Alena: I can actually, I’m gonna lend this to you after, this is one of the copies you can borrow. Okay.

Lauren: Yes. Okay.

Alena: So the essay is called In Life and Writing,

Lauren: Love it. and,

Alena: uh, basically I compare the two. In many of my liberal studies courses in University, we had essays as final exams.

I’d be given a series of questions to answer about a text or two passages to compare and have to come up with an essay. In a few hours, I’d slowly fill up the exam booklet, and at the end I’d write the best part of my essay condensed into one powerful sentence. This was what I’d been trying to say all along.

One professor always called me out on this, circling my thesis in red and writing beside it. This should have been at the beginning of your [00:02:00] essay. I was frustrated by her comment because I wasn’t able to write that sentence any sooner. I didn’t understand my main point until I’d processed everything that came before it.

As someone who came at as queer in my late thirties after marrying a man and having a child, I often feel like this late blooming essay, like I should have also known much sooner, but I couldn’t or wouldn’t, and so I didn’t. So, yeah,

Lauren: love that. So this is from the New quarterly and then this is your essay titled In Life and Writing.

Yeah,

Alena: it was a winter issue, 1 73 and it was very exciting to get that published. And um, it was my first one in a literary magazine, but just the whole concept of like the process of writing. Can be where you start with an idea and you don’t know where you’re gonna end up, or you kind of think you know where you’re going, but you end up somewhere else.

And that whole kind of idea of either being like structured, going into [00:03:00] it.

Lauren: mm-hmm.

Alena: Because you don’t wanna be like, in the same way, you don’t want someone to look at your life and be like, wow, that’s a mess. Like, you don’t want someone to look at your essay and be like, wow, that’s a mess. You know, like, where’s the structure, where’s the plot?

Where’s the narrative?

Lauren: It’s the classic two of like hindsight.

Alena: Oh yeah. Absolutely. Right. And so, this kind of late, you know, later in life theme is just so prominent with me.

Lauren: And so in the same, in the same way that in that essay you’re, you were talking about how. You that feedback kind of struck a nerve and, and hurt and all of those things. Do you have that narrative around late in life? Like, is it the same, you know, you couldn’t get there anyway. Yes.

Alena: For sure, but it does, but it doesn’t mean you still don’t kick yourself over it often, you know, often or sometimes. And um, actually by the time this.

episode comes out. I’ll have had, , an essay on CBC Arts coming out [00:04:00] about also the later in life kind of idea, right? About sex, the show, sex education, that British show, and how it brought up all these kind of later in life, at least complicated later in life. Feelings for me where you can feel simultaneously like grateful that the show exists, grateful that you came out when you did, but it doesn’t mean that you still don’t sometimes.

Kick yourself over not knowing sooner, even though that’s, you know, you couldn’t have, yeah. Like it’s, it’s only yourself now who knows who can look back and say, damn, why didn’t I know. But that version of you then wasn’t capable.

Lauren: No, it didn’t exist. Yeah. And it’s like the version you are now is a combination of all of those things. Um, and I think in, in talking about all these versions of ourselves and, um.

Kind of hitting some more intersectional, uh, identities. Um, maybe we should intro reintroduce ourselves. Okay. To, to the listeners. Oh

Alena: God. Okay.

Lauren: Okay. Do you, how do you feel [00:05:00] about that? Sure. And that, you know, you, you’re adding some, you’re adding some letters to your with distinction.

It’s true. It’s true.

Alena: Okay. Well, do you wanna go first?

Lauren: Absolutely not. Why not? I ask the questions here.

Alena: Okay. I’m Alena uh, I go by she, they. And I’m queer. And I’m autistic, and I am so happy to know those things about myself now.

Yeah.

Lauren: it feel good to say it? It

Alena: does feel good to say it because it’s also, there can be so much stigma around it and people can have certain ideas about what autism looks like as well, and which is partly why, especially

as a woman or like AFABs in general, like it, you go under the radar because autism has been diagnosed according to male baselines and

Lauren: Same with, yeah, same with a DH, adhd. It’s like I’m, same with most

Alena: Same with most things in the medical field for sure. So, so yeah, people can have kind of stigma around [00:06:00] admitting it.

Even because again, people might have particular notions about what it is or what it looks like or what it means for you. And uh, I’m just really trying to like lean into it because I know some of my quirks and strengths and some of my best qualities are probably a function of it.

Lauren: Heck yeah. I love it. Yeah. Well, nice to meet you.

Alena: Yeah, thanks. Thanks. Nice to

Lauren: To you. Nice to ee you. Yeah. Yeah.

 Well thank you for your intro. Uh, okay, let’s see. Um, I’m Lauren, I think we’re, I think we’re moving into the she.

Oh,

Alena: amazing. I love this.

Lauren: You know what the, she is just left for, uh, family members and colleagues. I think it’s like a video sheet.

Alena: She, it’s just kind of hanging on

by a

Lauren: I don’t need to. Yeah, we don’t need to do this. Yeah. , yeah. Neurodivergent, uh, my usual brand is, uh, raging, A DHD, uh,

Alena: raging to be [00:07:00] particular

Lauren: in, in, in the positives and negatives. uh, Um,

a dog, mom and fiance. Creative and, uh, in my later thirties white person.

Alena: You just can keep going. I feel like you

Lauren: I’m like,

Any

more boxes? I

should check.

Alena: that’s so funny. That could be a

Lauren: I might have to cut this.

Alena: Yeah. Maybe,

Lauren: Um, but yeah, I, I, I don’t know. I think. It is good to talk about the different intersect intersecting identities because they come up in, in different ways. Um, yeah. Um, maybe if you could talk a little bit about your diagnosis and what your journey was with that.

Alena: Sure. So actually first it started with my daughter a couple years ago, and there was the suggestion that she might be autistic and like from the family, and [00:08:00] I was like, no way. Not a chance, like. Not, not at all. You know, like had no real, real notions of what it was, or, or my, my image was probably of what it looks like in men or at boys or just like the most

Lauren: mm-hmm.

Alena: versions you’ve seen on television or, or in, in movies.

Right. And then within. I don’t know. Oh, a few days of reading a bit about what it looks like in girls and women watching a couple TED talks and things. I was pretty convinced.

Lauren: And, and what are some of those

Alena: So

for, for girls it’s much more internalized process. Okay. And what you’ll often see in girls is a real contrast in terms of their, uh, behavior.

So, like, for example. Like gorgeously, well behaved at school. Every teacher is saying what a pleasure to have in the classroom. Loves to follow the [00:09:00] rules, helps the other kids out, the little kids so they know what the rules are. You know, just like inquisitive pet in the books, does what they’re supposed to do.

Pleasure. Like absolute dream.

Lauren: you’re like, well, I’m crushing parenting.

Yeah. but

Alena: What you see at home are the meltdowns, are the inability to sort of do things they don’t wanna do or, or I guess now in retrospect are an, I know they’re anxious about.

Mm-hmm.

But it comes out as just like emotional dysregulation and like pure meltdowns and like freaking out over the tiniest little things like.

Your socks not being perfectly aligned on your heels. Or, my daughter had this infamous line, like it’s too tight, and she’d kind of like pull her pants away from her body and just be like, it’s too tight. You know? So these like kind of bodily sensory things and just like, not like I remember the first day of school showing up for her in junior kindergarten, [00:10:00] and.

All the other parents and kids were like, happy taking photos, you know, just like so excited for the day. Mm-hmm. And we showed up, barely got out the door. She had cried. I had cried,

Lauren: Everybody’s crying And

Alena: made it there. And I remember a fellow mom being like, do you want me to take a picture of you guys? And we kind of looked up and were like.

No,

Lauren: we don’t.

Alena: And so things like that where you look around and you’re like, why does it look like I’m the only one going through this? Yeah. Like what is different about us? Mm-hmm. That this was our morning, whereas everyone else had a great day.

Lauren: Yeah. And it’s interesting, I think you say too about the at home versus at school. Yeah. And because likely what was happening is your daughter was probably masking all day. Totally. And just like.

Making it through.

Alena: Yes. Making it through. Trying so hard to like know what the rules are, how to behave, and then in the safety of home, [00:11:00] actually completely melting

Lauren: Able to fall apart.

Alena: Yeah. So that was, that’s one of the, um, the reasons, and then there’s also part of the masking is also how. Like falls into people pleasing.

Lauren: Mm-hmm.

Alena: So, I mean, now that made me rethink a lot of my, what I thought was people pleasing in my life too. ’cause I’m like, oh, maybe that

Lauren: go check her

Alena: yeah. Me masking social and just being like socialized as a girl to do these things, which are basically the same way.

That often girls will mask too. It like, looks very similar. Um, and with the added social pressure of like, you know, being a girl and these kind of expectations put on you that aren’t put on

Lauren: Mm-hmm.

Alena: Mm-hmm. Um, what

Lauren: Well, I think even too, to. The looking back, like I think we talked a little bit about this with coming out and it’s like, it’s, it’s so interesting ’cause it’s, now that you have this diagnosis and understanding and framework, it’s like, it’s, it, it’s so [00:12:00] tempting and like, how can you not look back and try and be like, pick up on those things?

For sure. Um, yeah. Yeah.

Alena: then once

she was diagnosed, well, as she was getting diagnosed, basically it start me, it started me thinking about myself. Yeah. And just being like, huh.

Hmm. Well, there are some parallels there.

Like, I remember being inconsolable my mom’s words. Exactly. You know, when I had to go to like, swimming lessons, probably every week I cried. Or like, you know, and, um,

Lauren: and what was it about the swimming

Alena: was it about the swimming? It was, I don’t rem I literally just remember just being like so upset. Yeah. And, but anything she kind of was making me do or anything I didn’t wanna do.

one

time she literally had, I remember holding on, um, to my bed at home. Yeah. ’cause I didn’t wanna go to school. I think this was like JK or something very little. Oh yeah. So basically, I think it was junior kindergarten. I remember holding onto my bed and crying. My mom had to like call my dad home from work to help to try and get me there.

[00:13:00] And it’s supposed to be only half days. And apparently I just learned this recently. That it just happened so many times that I, like, I, I do remember being sat down beside my teacher and just crying and her like, patting me on the head. Um, but it happened so much that the school eventually was like, you know what?

Let’s just try again next year. Like this clearly isn’t working.

Lauren: Like you just,

I just didn’t

go no more jk just now we’re

try again next year.

Alena: Right,

Lauren: so

it’s like they’re clearly not ready. But then,

Alena: But then, but then part of the diagnosis was like going back and luckily my mom had kept all my report cards from literally every year and including a letter from my Montessori school that.

Was, so it was just basically an echo of ev of my daughter’s behavior. Like perfect a dream in the class, follows the rules, and then meanwhile at home I’m melting

Lauren: onto the bed.

Alena: yeah, exactly right. So, um, so that’s one, one clear sign. There’s also like more subtle things like apparently. [00:14:00] Girls, autistic girls are more likely to have boys as friends when they’re younger.

And my daughter did that. Hey, I still have a lot of close guy friends because there’s this kind of, um, well, maybe not a lot too. I have like two. Um, and I love them both. Um, but. Um, there’s this, it just feels like a simpler interaction It’s like a less complicated dynamic and relationship. And so my daughter had that as well when she was little.

So anyways, I’m getting off topic, but her diagnosis led to me considering my own experience and then, and it was also happening at a point where I was feeling like suddenly most functioning and relationships and things were suddenly just more difficult. And I di I couldn’t understand why.

Mm-hmm. And I mean, in retrospect, I think I was going through autistic burnout really.

But, um, so it kind of was like, at the same time as me reaching some sort of breaking point mm-hmm. Where I was already kind [00:15:00] of, you know, looking at what was going on. So that made sense of it.

Lauren: Yeah. And so in. And since being diagnosed and now knowing what you know now and having the, this new lens to look back on your experiences, how are like, are what, I guess what’s happened since your diagnosis?

Are there, are there new ways you’re kind of dealing with things? Are you, what’s, what’s going on?

Alena: I think it’s a whole new level of permission. Basically at its core, it’s like permission to say no to things. Permission to protect my energy.

Um. you know, like permission to even just silly things that save me. Like, not silly things, but I, I didn’t realize how much joy I get from leftovers. Amazing. Like from making a lot of food. Yeah. And knowing it’s gonna save me energy for like the next few days. Yeah. I get so much happiness out of that.

Lauren: [00:16:00] Yeah. Didn’t we talk, um, we’ve talked, I think on the podcast before too, about like permission to just even eat the same thing.

Totally.

Alena: Yeah. Oh yeah. Maybe that was when we did a New

Lauren: Year’s

yeah, yeah,

Alena: yeah. So like, yeah.

Lauren: so you, you’re following your resolutions. Look at us checking it. Yeah.

Alena: And I’m learning two things that feed me like, so when I am having, well there’s one huge revelation that, um, so.

One another common

experience of autistic

women is

misdiagnosis. And a psychologist did try to diagnose me with depression and it didn’t feel right. ’cause I was like, but it is not chronic for me. Like I can be great for days and days and then I’ll have two sad

Lauren: Yeah.

Alena: Where I’m can’t do anything

Lauren: That’s the burnout.

Alena: Yeah. That’s a burnout. And so I realized that actually my sad is when I’m tired. that’s when it happens. So just like knowing that it’s a temporary state, if I can try and avoid it, then that’s great.

Lauren: And then just even maybe [00:17:00] prioritizing sleep and the things that affect your

Alena: Totally

rest. And then also what I realized, ’cause you don’t wanna just necessarily like rest all the time during those moments.

So actually what I found I did last time was I did some like baking and

Lauren: Oh yeah. it

Alena: was just like slow and quiet. But yeah. And like the smell of the broth, I’m making soup and baking stuff like kind of

meditative, you know? And so I was like, oh, this is me actually kind of filling my cup a little

Lauren: This is what I do in those kind of slow. And even I think too, it’s, it’s interesting that from what you’re saying, there’s a lot of like, oh, it seems like there’s a bit of a Venn diagram with a DHD. ’cause I, I, you know, was diagnosed with depression as a teenager, uh, and in my early twenties. Yeah. And, um.

Yeah, I’ve, I’ve recontextualize a lot of that to be with more of like, you know, that A DHD burnout. And so it’s really, it’s really cool to hear you say that. Um, but I think it’s what I was gonna say, oh,

Like [00:18:00] permission to slow down and just being like, oh, I’ve been here before.

I know what works in these moments. That’s so great. I think, um, Even just like riding the different waves and energies that we have is a skill regardless of whether or not your neurodivergent is something that’s really valuable for a lot of people. And, and like being okay with it.

Yeah,

Alena: exactly. Not like judging

Lauren: yourself Yeah. ’cause that only makes it, yeah. It’s like there’s already so much pressure and

Alena: Yeah.

Um, what else was I gonna say about And even just sensory, other sensory things like lighting candles or listening to particular music, even if it’s the same album over and over and over again. Like if that’s what feeds you again, and if that’s what kind of builds you back up, then just like lean into it.

So the kind of. Like nerding out. That can happen with autism. It can be like, you know, just really be fascinated by something and just allowing myself to lean into that. Like whether it’s my writing or [00:19:00] just like, I don’t even know, random, like random things.

Lauren: It sounds like it’s almost like permission to reframe things that might’ve been, um, like, that you might have felt were negative in the past, but now it’s like you can kind of, it sounds like you’re letting yourself see it as almost like a superpower

Alena: Absolutely. And it’s something that is feeding me for some reason, like it brings me joy. So why would I judge that?

Lauren: Yeah, yeah.

Um, I’m curious, um, because obviously you are a professor, you’re a writer. We just listened to your, one of your published essays. Um, I think it’s, uh, and I’m, I’m curious if you would make the comparison, but I think there’s definitely something to, um.

The sensory things, and that probably being a really big part of your writing. It’s like, because if you are someone who is really sensitive to the way something feels, or like, you know, the smell of the rain or the candles or this, it’s like you’re, you’re, you’re probably, I would imagine more easily able [00:20:00] to paint those pictures for other folks.

Alena: That’s a good point. I think part of it for me is, um.

maybe,

maybe it’s like the pattern noticing

Lauren: almost. Yeah.

Alena: Um, or finding some bigger meaning in a moment. Yeah. Like I think I’ve, I think I’ve told you about this essay that I’ve written called The Cardile, where it’s about like, basically it opens with me trying to pick a

Lauren: Mm-hmm.

Alena: um, a Mother’s Day card and that experience, you know, being basically.

Like a moment of truth for you. It’s this moment that forces you to define a relationship. And you know, like sometimes you’re simplifying the relationship. Sometimes you’re n neutral speaking neutrally. Sometimes you are imposing your own personality on the other person with the card you give. Sometimes, like there’s all these different things that come from that, and that’s one of those thoughts that, you know, anyone I tell, they’re like, oh, absolutely.

Like I’ve experienced that. Like, but [00:21:00] yet, yet, it’s. No, I don’t know.

Lauren: Maybe they might not articulate it.

Alena: exactly. Or thought of

Lauren: or have like lived in it in the same

way. Yeah.

Alena: So f for me to like find those moments that feel like a microcosm for something bigger that we experience, I feel like that is the strength too.

That probably comes from,

Lauren: It’s the end of the essay. It’s like the, the, the sum up. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I think that’s what makes, like, even things as simple as tiktoks or Instagrams, it’s when someone articulates the obvious thing and, but we all, yeah.

I don’t have that ability in the same way. It’s like, I, I love your writing because you always have this like hook or way in that’s so evident after you’ve read it, but like. Not until then. Right.

Alena: right.

Lauren: And I think because you’re living in those nuances, it’s so much more, you’re more easily able to access those, which is really cool.

Alena: I mean, I think. Writing has been a gift to [00:22:00] put me in touch with my more, my more like emotive side because probably also part of my autism has meant I’ve thought about my feelings.

Mm-hmm. More than I felt them in the past. Oh And not

Lauren: more, it’s

Alena: them, not been able to identify them, really not be able to be in my like embodied with them.

Lauren: it’s like more intellectual.

Exactly. Yeah.

Alena: And so I think this whole like, you know, spiritual journey I’ve been on for however many years it all

Lauren: Don’t throw it away. I know.

you know,

Alena: but I mean, it’s.

It’s been, that’s, that’s when I started writing, yeah. Was through getting in touch with that and kind of finally opening up that portal of emotions that was like corked for so

long.

Yeah. And so I think the writing lets me kind of pair those two where it’s like it’s analytical in a certain way,

but it’s

also emotional.

Lauren: , so question for our listeners who might, they themselves be autistic or some of these seems might [00:23:00] even just be resonating for them.

They may not have a diagnosis and we can talk about diagnosis and there’s, you know, it’s not. Always necessary.

Alena: Mm-hmm.

Lauren: Um, but what do you do? I’m, I’m, I’m curious about like, when you are first meeting people and like just getting to know folks, do you, do you lead with, do you tell people or do you have any kind of strategies that, that you’ve kind of maybe learned recently or have noticed that you have employed in the past when, when meeting other folks?

Alena: I mean, I guess it depends on like, I’m not likely just gonna be throwing it

Lauren: out Yeah.

Alena: To random strangers unless it comes up in the context

of some sort of conversation.

Lauren: Well, and I guess too, like you’re not someone who ticks or like has maybe visual presentations of it.

Alena: Yeah.

But I might, you know, let’s say though, if I am. Out at a place that’s pretty busy and I’m trying to talk to someone

and it’s sensory overload, then I might bring it up [00:24:00] and be like, oh, could we go over there? Or I have to put some ear plugs in. I, you know, I might, the in so in context I might bring it

Lauren: up.

Yeah.

Alena: Um, but I mean, who knows? Some, maybe I would bring it up in some random way too, as part of my t autism. Just be like, just be like, well, just kind of as a throwaway

Lauren: calm maybe. Yeah.

Try to get ahead of

it, or, Yeah.

Alena: I mean, but at the same time, it’s. It’s not necessary. It’s not necessary. But it could also be, you know, when I probably bring it up is if I think, I think I’ve developed a bit of like, in the same way you develop gaar.

Mm-hmm. Like an autism radar. Totally. So I feel like I probably would bring it up if I suspected that they might also be autistic or

on the spectrum somewhere.

Lauren: if you’re out at a show and you’re two people in the booth, while everyone else is on the dance floor in.

Alena: If we’re in our introvert’s corner, if we’re both putting your earplugs in at the same moment.

Yeah. Um,

Lauren: a what a what a fun meet. Cute. You look over, you’re putting your earplugs

Alena: time.

Lauren: Hey. Okay.

Alena: [00:25:00] Okay. I like that. Um,

okay, another thing I wanted to mention, , is. Leaning into alone

Lauren: Mm.

Alena: and just like, I don’t think I’ve ever celebrated alone time as much as I do now.

I used to maybe judge myself for wanting it or think that I should be like, you know, with people, there’s oftentimes I’ll be out at a coffee shop on my own and I’ll look up and I’m like, M, most other people here are here with other people and they’re all chatting. And I’m okay with that. Like I’ll almost have a moment to be like, wait, is this weird that I’m just here alone?

And then be like, nah, you

Lauren: know, it’s fine.

Alena: because, and half the time I end up talking with people, there’s, you know, it ends up being social, but it’s also, it’s also almost like, I’d like being around people but not having the responsibility of the other people

And so you’re just like people watching you can, you know, pipe in if you want to here and there, but it’s kind of all up to you.

Like you have agency in that moment and. So, yeah, I’ve never, I’ve never [00:26:00] celebrated alone time so much because I really feel like, at least in my experience, it is like, that’s when I recharge. Yeah.

Lauren: That’s why I feel, um, like group running. I want there to be people who are talking. I. I don’t wanna talk. I’m too tired. I’m running. I’m just focusing on getting wherever the heck we’re going and not dying.

Alena: but you want the,

Lauren: But I want to be in the conversation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And to, and to like be a part of it, but I don’t wanna contribute.

Alena: It’s so funny. Just leaching

Lauren: conversation. Yeah. I think I must listened to too many podcasts. I’m just like, tell me a story. Tell me a podcast.

Alena: in my ears right now.

Lauren: Yeah.

Alena: so

Um, Um,

Lauren: resources or like maybe if just like

Alena: Yeah, I can post, uh, we can add the place that I got diagnosed if anyone wants, um, ’cause they’ll do diagnoses for, for people that are, aren’t children. And it’s really a combination of a, like a qualitative interview where you answer a bunch of [00:27:00] questions about your experience and then you also afterwards fill out a bunch of.

Quantitative questionnaires, which are all, um, help in their diagnosis. Um, and then just like a kind of a debrief afterwards to tell you where you landed potentially on the spectrum. And yeah, I mean, I, I don’t think I realized how powerful the diagnosis would be. I definitely did cry, you know, when they told me, because there is.

Also obviously grief that comes along with not understanding your own experience for so many years of

your life. And you know, you kind of feel sad for that kid who was like, oh, that’s why she didn’t get it, or that’s why that was so

Lauren: confusing, Yeah.

Alena: Um, so that, that’s normal to have feelings like that.

And, you know, you can go between feeling. Great for knowing, but also feeling sad for not having known for so long. But yeah, if anyone’s curious, and you [00:28:00] don’t have to even go through diagnosis.

We will post a couple resources, including where I got my diagnosis and Devin Price writes pretty extensively about it and we can post, uh, he has one book as well that’s basically, arguing that you don’t ever have to go through an official diagnosis, like self-diagnosis is enough. And there’s so many resources out there too that we can, we can post some for you if you’re interested.

Lauren: I love it. Thank you so much for sharing. Yeah. Your experience with all of this. It’s, uh, it’s been, it’s been cool to be, you know, a, a passenger on your journey

Alena: Yeah. Well, I love

having you there.

Lauren: This has been another episode of Dear Queer. Just a reminder, we are not actually experts. Any advice given should actually come from our experts who we will bring in from time to time.

Music brought to you by Sean Patrick Brennan, produced by myself, Lauren Hogarth, and your host as always, Alena Papayanis I’m cutting that.