Bisexual people make up about half of the 2SLGBTQIA population, yet are less likely to be out than others in the queer community, often facing stigma and biphobia, even from people within the queer community. We wanted to get some insight into the bi experience and contribute to some bi visibility, and we’re doing so today with dear friend of the pod, Dr. Mandy Wintink. Welcome, Mandy.
Enjoy!
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Music By: Sean Patrick Brennan @ayeayeayemusic
Thank YOU!
Transcript:
[00:00:00] And so it was a very welcoming environment
out.
But, so I didn’t really
expect that. And I was like, oh, wow,
they’re
going to make me pick a side.
Bisexual people make up about half of the 2SLGBTQIA population, yet are less likely to be out than others in the queer community.
They often face stigma and biphobia, even from people within the queer community. We wanted to get some insight into the bi experience and contribute to some bi visibility, and we’re doing so today with dear friend of the pod, Dr. Mandy Wintink. Welcome, Mandy.
Thanks for having me again.
yeah, we’re so excited to have you back. Do you, do you want to give like a quick little intro of, of who you are and, uh, how you’re joining us today?
I
Ha, ha, ha, Ha, ha, Straight to the point. I love it.
I
love it.
Works for me.
so for our listeners, you’ve heard Mandy before contribute to our, our Neurodiversity episode.
Um, but here we’re leaning on Mandy for, like, an actual, like, personal, um,
So
she’s an expert in terms of her personal experience, although I’m sure the science you sometimes comes out even in conversations that are personal. In fact, I know from experience in talking to you, it often overlaps. Um, but you know, we’re leaning on you today for your, for your personal
experience.
yeah, [00:02:00]
am.
um, so
thanks for giving me the space to do that. But, um, yeah, I mean, obviously I have a background in. Neuroscience and psychology. I, I, teach
neuroscience and psychology at the university level and through my own company.
And I also teach about, um, the biology and gender and homosexuality or bisexuality
or sexuality in general.
Um, and you know, and I, and I teach it all from a non binary perspective and that’s what I’ve been doing for many, many years. And so this is, topic, all topics around sex and gender are very dear to me personally.
And, and I think there’s just lots of education and awareness that, you know, the general public can benefit from to, to, create a more inclusive,
um, experience for
everybody. So,
Absolutely.
Heck yeah, well it kind of goes into our, our first question for you really nicely. um, belonging is I mean, it’s such an important part of everyone’s life, and queer people, you know, we often more heavily into wanting to feel like we belong to our community, but bisexual people often struggle with this more than others because of the exclusion and rejection that they can experience from being seen as not queer enough, uh, not, not my, my opinion, You know, some common tropes in the, in the queer community, um, and perhaps not straight enough from the straight community, uh, bit of a double edged sword there.
Um, can you maybe tell us about some of your experiences and challenges with
Yeah, for
sure. I definitely have, uh, I definitely feel not queer enough. Like,
You know, on a, on a daily basis when I’m reflecting on it, um, and I’ve struggled with that in different times, but,
you know, I’ve been lucky to have conversations with people [00:04:00] who, you know, in my eyes are more queer and I put that with like quotes, um, who have like embraced me in and made me feel like, you know, everyone is, you know, is queer enough and I, and I know that there are some people, some queer folk who don’t actually, you know, recognize, um, everyone as being queer and, and it comes from both ends of that.
But, you know, being,
you know, I
definitely
feel that, you know, it’s, uh,
I mean, it gets into the idea of indecisiveness that I’ll hold off for a second, but yeah, that we’re just, we’re not, um, it’s not recognized. And I think especially when you’re bisexual in a hetero relationship. So I am, monogamous relationship with a, a man, like, um, And so I,
I feel very awkward when it’s contained and I’m, you
know, closed off from that. And I actually
think that I feel
more awkward, um, with that
hidden, like that sort of like, um, elephant in the room. I guess, I don’t know if that’s the right term to say that, but, you know,
when it’s
hidden
as opposed
to the blank
stares that I
can sometimes get if I lob that out there.
So, you know, definitely it’s not always received well when I say that, although very rarely.
but I’d rather lob something
out, like, I’m bisexual [00:06:00] and have
people
be surprised or shocked as opposed
as
um, me hiding because
that feels more uncomfortable to
me. So,
um, so that’s part of my
attempt
at belonging.
This is to like
lob things out and and see
what kind of
response I get.
response
because
yeah, I was
you’re, kind of opening a door every time
you do that, Because you don’t, we, we really never know the company we’re in or where other people are in their experiences, and, and just by virtue of you kind of saying that and opening that door, then, you know, I, I don’t know if this has happened, but I’m sure it opens up the opportunity for other people to share their experience or be seen by you in those instances.
in those instances.
people are welcoming and a part of your community, or, or the opposite, right? So you might actually find, like, maybe you end up finding two other bisexual friends who are also in the straight presenting, you know, relationships, or maybe you find out that they’re a little uncomfortable about that and those aren’t your people.
Like, you’re kind of, you’re finding your answer either way.
Right?
And I would
say, you know, more often than not,
lobbying it out.
Uh, I do find someone who now is more open to share their experiences or now
we’ve found this like
or now we’ve
or whatever. Um, that is
definitely
more common. And,
you know, this happens when I say, talk about my sexuality or when I talk about.
You know, gender, if I, when I use the pronouns, they, you know, I do this
in class. I start my class with like
trying to get these
things out there so that
students
then feel more like at ease. And they’ve told me that they, feel more at ease, and
they’re more comfortable knowing what my
identity is and that they may relate
in
some
way to their professor instead of me seeming like this very
distant person. So, um, it
definitely, you know, creates that,
um, that space. So it’s it’s been mostly. Like 99 percent positive when I, when I do share that, so.
when I, when [00:08:00] I do share that, so. Uh, have you experienced any of these personally, or any others that I haven’t mentioned?
Yeah, absolutely. I
remember, you know,
the,
so I was in my
30s, early 30s when
came out as bisexual, and I was in a relationship with a woman, like we were, um, I had had other experiences, but this was like a full on relationship. And, um, I, Was excited to tell people actually. So I, you know, I told my family and it was fairly easy to tell them, but I told.
best friend
from, uh, home.
And I was, I was living in Halifax at the time, my best friend from home. We weren’t very
close anymore, but you know, we stayed in touch. And so I thought I need to tell her
because this is needs to know.
And
she was the first person to.
say like, you know, she just kept questioning me, like, what do you mean?
And I said, well, I’m, you know, I’m with a woman now. she’s like, so you’re a lesbian. I’m like, well, no. And I really didn’t feel like I was going
to be
Like that, label didn’t feel right for me. And so I kept trying to say, you know, Oh, it’s a person and stuff. But you know, I, was like, hey, I think I’m bisexual.
And she’s like, well, no, like if you’re with a woman
now, then you must be a lesbian. And she was just so hard on
me.
And. I, I was taken aback. because I wasn’t expecting that at all. I think because I was naively so excited and, you know, I was with among a lot of
People
out. And so it was a very welcoming environment
out.
But, so I didn’t really
expect that. And I was like, oh, wow,
they’re
going to make me pick a side.
And I’m like,
I
don’t
like, I don’t
really want
And,
You know, and I think
for some
people it [00:10:00] being like using
the term bisexual can be a gateway to become or to identify as, you
know,
lesbian or gay or whatever, but for some
whatever, but for some
like, that’s
is, like, that’s where they’re gonna stay.
And so
understand a bit confusing. For other people as
they
watch us go through a process. But,
um, But,
it’s
not, it’s not indecisiveness now. I mean, I’m 48 and I still fully feel like I
would be happy to be in a sexual relationship
with a
man or a woman. Um, And that’s just how
it is. I don’t think that’s going to, you know, change.
Yeah, I guess it speaks to that kind of unwavering desire for people to put people into boxes. And there’s like, boy or girl, straight or queer. And it’s like, they kind of, that middle ground is still there. It’s still so uncomfortable for so many people, it’s like this, it reflects the kind of rigidity around that, that zone in the middle that is very valid, um, and on a spectrum, but I guess it’s, what’s even more disappointing is when we see people within the queer community also expecting people to fit within that, which is where we get, you know, biphobia and stigma even within the queer community as
well.
Yeah,
Um, and I, yeah, now that you
say that
I’m sort of reflecting on,
you know, some of the experiences that I’ve had from
within the community as well,
and I don’t, I wouldn’t say it’s been as harsh
as that for me personally,
it’s been more passive comments. um,
as
opposed to like a
to like a
you know, attack
on me.
So
yeah, it’s like in
So yeah, like more, you’re more microaggression y type stuff.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I
remember too there was I used to run an organization called body Monologue. Person
speak Melanie, You might have actually been there at this one Or maybe it was before your time, but she she talked about it as a hidden sexuality
[00:12:00] And
she was bisexual and also with a man.
And I think she has since, uh,
maintained a a relationship with, um, with a guy. And,
I loved that
terminology because that really was how I felt and she just captured it so well And I think
it’s
more of a term that’s used now. than years
ago. like, yeah, it is a kind of a hidden sexuality.
And so I started to identify more with people, um, who had other. Like the
hidden, inequities,
is like a whole other like
camp
like,
You know, places where we, we can experience
inequity in life, like, um,
visible minority versus like invisible minority.
And I was like, okay,
that makes sense. That’s sort of like where I’m at.
So I don’t, I can’t, I relate to some of
these experiences
of a visible minority, but I can relate to
but I can
uh, from a different perspective. So it’s,
you know, you, you end up also being
in conversations where people say things because they have assumptions about your sexuality
or, you know, you know,
your gender or whatever. And so you hear things that maybe other
people don’t always
hear
because people don’t say things when they know you’re, they’re in front of someone who
is, but like, you
know, gay.
As
gay as opposed
I think, too, even in a lot of queer spaces. There’s, there can be assumption of either, like, gay or, like, bisexual and, like, that is not, like, um, We, we have a friend who, whose partner often speaks up and, uh, to like, say no, no, like, you know, my partner’s bi and I, I think that’s so beautiful and maybe unfortunate that they have to do that, but it’s also that, I mean, a product of, of where we are currently and it’s just, um, yeah, it’s interesting to see it in queer spaces and I think to what you said, like, can be disappointing when, you know, we, we need to show up and be there for it.
, queer is kind of an umbrella [00:14:00] term and it is for everyone.
Yeah,
And I think,
you know, Eleni, you’re talking about the,
the rigid binary and, you know, I really think we’re breaking that down
right now. Like
down right now. Like we’re,
and some of us are doing it, you know, taking it one for the team right now, but it’s so present in so many realms, like even, um, You know, there’s a, a, kid at
my
kid’s school who, uh, switched pronouns and started using from, uh, was born male, but then started using, uh, feminine pronouns later on.
So in like grade six or something, and now this year they decided to switch. decided that they wanted to use they at school, but they want to go back
to he
when they’re out in the world. And I, and I
We have a very welcoming environment at this school.
And I’m just so like, how amazing is That
these kids get
to play with pronouns, play with gender, Mm-Hmm. play with sexuality. because I know that’s happening way. Like that wasn’t allowed when I was
eighties, like we
Like we couldn’t play
you picked something and that was it. And then you
were
You didn’t even pick it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. And I just think amazing space right now to be able to break down this binary and start to play. And. And I think we’re gonna grow with ourselves. you know,
here’s what we, we choose in the end, we get to play with that. Just like we play with hair color and we play with like the
Yeah. I have
a lot of faith in the, the younger generations too. And actually when I was looking up some stats and things about bisexuality, apparently more and more young people are identifying as bisexual when you look at it in terms of like generations. [00:16:00] So maybe that’s part of. Um, you know, the progress there is that more people will identify as it, and it’s going to become more and more common.
Although it is still more stigmatized amongst men, there’s a lot more women identifying as bisexual than men, so, because there’s more, you know, stigma around masculinity and things that are probably preventing a lot of, um, men from admitting that and being open about it.
I think, like, when you think about what kind of world you want to live in, it’s like, of course we want to live in the one where there’s room to change and grow and, you know, not have to, like, con decide,
you
know, what works in this moment and maybe that doesn’t work, uh, in another.
I think a lot of the kind of fear or like, uh, bad behavior in the queer community towards, bisexuality really comes from a place of, Of fear, and like, and this um, having to like, hold on tight, and like, because of, you know, uh, stigmatisms and, you know, often violence, and different things that the queer community as a whole has had to fight so hard for.
And so, I think there’s, I think it comes from that place, and at least that’s my, my hope, and not an actual like, deep seated. Yeah,
and I mean, sometimes if it’s in a, within a particular relationship, I think the insecurity comes from, Let’s say, you know, your partner is bi, and maybe there’s your own anxieties and insecure attachment, potentially, and you’re worried you’re gonna be abandoned, and they’re just gonna go back to to their ex, or to a man, or like, so sometimes I think it comes it just co comes from these, like, yeah, and just, like, their own insecurities about, um, it’s not necessarily about that person, but it gets projected onto that person.
Okay, what are some of the biggest challenges of being a bisexual person in a straight presenting partnership? And you’ve touched on this a little bit, but, um, are there any other ways that you that you are able to express and make [00:18:00] your queerness more visible?
Like I know you’ve talked about it in the past, but are there even things moving forward that you’re thinking like, maybe I’ll do this, or maybe this is another way?
this question stumps me. Um,
I don’t know. I mean, I think,
I think in a few
years, Like,
I’ll be able to consider this more like right now. I mean,
even as an example,
we’re in a monogamous
relationship,
explored the idea of,
of, it
or that be Pauly, um, but
practically speaking right now,
it’s just like, we don’t have time, like
there’s, it’s not possible with like, we
have a young child, you know,
I’ve got work to
do, like, there’s just,
I don’t have time for all
that. Um,
and I never had
time for that when I
was younger. Like I was,
you know, always in
monogamous relationships. There was one summer where I
a hectic summer. um,
you know, so I don’t know that
that’s
like.
Fully
where I might go. but, but I’m open to
exploring those
types of things because I
do feel like, you know, the
challenge
is that, you know, I do feel like I’m missing
one
element of it.
Like I, I mean, I like having sex with women,
like it is great. Um,
and so I don’t
right now, because we’re in a monogamous relationship. I don’t do that. Um, but I
love that I have a very
love, that I have a partner,
these conversations with me, entertains, you know, where I’m at. He knew me when I was in
my relationship.
It was, you know, my long
term relationship with a
woman. So He knows me,
He knows me, and,
he’s supportive and and also like open to
talking about stuff. And he
knew from the beginning that I was going to challenge him with
like non conventional ideas. And
he’s totally okay with that even when he’s not.
Do youare you comfortable telling us a bit [00:20:00] about, um, how you And him handle crushes?
yeah.
I mean, that is
how we,
like, we’ve always done that. And like, I have lots of crushes,
so I enjoy, um, I enjoy my
crushes very much.
much.
um,
Like, and that’s, you know, I was reading, I follow
Devin,
price. I
don’t know if you
know who he is, but
he’s yeah. So he’s a neurodiverse
trans, um, man. and, uh,
also
uh,
He has a PhD in social psychology.
So I love, like, his
perspective and he really like, you know, pushes the
boundaries on a lot of things. and and he was talking about like how that’s a
like very.
I mean, of course everything’s fair, but like a very valid, um, amazing
way to
express your like queerness within a relationship
is
to have these crushes.
And I read that and I was like so
And I was, like, so because,
like in a lot of ways I felt like it was just like, Oh,
it was just like, oh this is just
like, you know, trivial. like some of these questions. But then I was reading his writing on, him, like, Oh, actually that is my way of expressing my queerness. Like I want to have these questions, I want to
like,
You my mind feel it in my body. Like
I feel those
crushes
feel these questions. And so, and those questions I’ve
had since I was little,
So I was a kid,
like
they meant when I had that crush on a girl, I knew what
it meant
when I had a crush on a boy, but I didn’t know what it
meant when I had a crush on a girl.
And, um,
I
mean, even as an example, like, I I don’t know if I shared this before.
Anywhere. But my first sexual experience was with a
girl. Like it was, we were in grade
six and we were,
having sex and I never put it into the
camp of having sex because I.
because I. Thought it was with a girl we were just experimenting and you know, that’s kind of what we kept it quiet We never told
but it wasn’t
but it wasn’t
until I was 30 and I was like coming out as bisexual
first time having sex was not when I was 14 with
a
14, boy [00:22:00] It was when I was 12 with a girl The feeling comes up all the time So it’s like I, I I’m still having it. Um, and I need to express that I need to
like,
look at them and feel that I need to like, engage with them intellectually.
Um, but for now, it’s not, we don’t we haven’t gone into the call. I haven’t gone beyond that, Between Mandate and her partner around the crushes. As well as other things. There’s real like relationship goal stuff too. Because I love, isn’t it, don’t you have a two week period too where you like, you can just enjoy it before you tell your partner about the
crush? Yeah. I
love that. Right? Like it’s just yours for two weeks?
And then you, and then you open up about it and discuss it.
Yeah, and the big reason for that,
period, enjoy it,
and then it was gone. Because then it’s not this like fun thing that I get to explore. So I was like, can we have like a two week period where we don’t tell about the crush so we can
enjoy it? And then
we’ll, we’ll tell it.
And, uh,
and every
time, as soon as I,
like, I tell it, the crush kind of like dwindles.
So I’m like, okay,
I might need to like, expand that to
like a month or something.
to like a month or something. Yeah,
That’s that’s such a beautiful way though for your partner to validate your queerness and I love that
Yeah.
Many are you game for a listener
Oh, yeah.
Oh, my
Okay, cool
goodness,
Yes.
Okay Um, Hi Dear Queer, I’m a bi female and want to know if you think it’s really worth coming out as bisexual if you’re in a que bleh, I’m gonna start that back. I am a bi female and want to know if you think it’s really worth coming out as bisexual if you’re in a committed hetero relationship.
Obviously yes to your partner, but what about family, friends, etc? friends and the like. Not doing this [00:24:00] doesn’t really feel authentic and truthful, but at the same time, is it worth it if you’re not intending to date same
same sex people?
So do
So
do
I answer this first?
answer this first? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if you’d like to speak to it, because I mean, it’s, It’s something, you know, every queer person goes through, like, who do I tell? Who’s it worth sharing? Obviously you can stay hidden, potentially, if you’re in a, um, a straight presenting relationship. So yeah, what’s, what’s your take on that?
I
think in an
I think in a safe
environment you know, very few consequences, negative consequences, Absolutely come out. you’re presenting more transparently and openly and authentically.
A nice environment, um, of the environment for our
nibbling or
whoever might
come out.
in an ideal ideal world, but that’s not
the case for You know, it’s always balancing. Like, is it worth coming out? Um,
you know, if it doesn’t change the circumstances, but there’s gonna be a lot of consequences to that. Like, is there gonna be a lot of, um, harshness from the family?
Like, you know, we always have to balance that. And, it, you know, every individual’s
but,
um, but it sounds like
this
you know, Person asking,
the question,
it must feel like it’s a safe enough
environment that they’re
just actually asking, is it worth it? Like what’s the benefit of coming out if I’m not going to
act on it? And I think there are lots of benefits
to coming out if you’re not Acting on it, because
you never know how you can. Um, act on it in a way that works with your existing relationship. Like, you know, the crushes that I just talked about or reading or watching, uh, different content. Like,
you know, there’s, there’s many ways.
And I think
if we have an opportunity to be authentic, Take it. Um, and then that creates a
ripple and [00:26:00] then you never know
where it’s going to go
from
there.
it’s going to go
Yeah. I think, you know, obviously putting safety into consideration is.
is,
paramount, and, you know, we’re, you know, I, I don’t know if this person lives in a, in a privileged place where they feel like they can do that safely, but what I can say is, like, in my personal opinion, it’s like, the more people who are out, the more beautiful and accepting our society becomes.
And it’s just like, it’s like, what, what an opportunity to share yourself and also probably be validated in, in your queer experience. And yeah, I think, I think to what you said about you never know who’s, who’s watching and who’s listening. So it’s also an opportunity to kind of extend that olive branch back to, to your community and family and friends.
So, yeah. Always hopeful for that. Anything
we missed?
Can I? Yeah. Well, I just want to add to that I
I’m, I tried to be very vocal about my experiences
and, you know, I was talking about lobbying things
out
and stuff because I, I do come from a privileged
space. I’ve been very
fortunate
to not have anyone, um, throw
me out, uh, you know, say they don’t love me anything, abuse me, nothing.
I
haven’t. Had those so I
And so I do feel
like
it’s, I need to use that privilege to create the space. because I’ve been given this, I need to use my voice. I need to share it. I need to take the small hits that I might
to create a safer environment for everyone else.
So,
everyone else. So, you know, we often talk about how to use our privilege.
We
That’s just the way life is in this day and age. So
if We have privilege, we need to use that. And this could be
an environment, a situation, or I would say for me, it would be a situation where I could use my privilege to be more vocal. And I think,
um, again, that’s why it’s not,
situation. but if we have privilege,
[00:28:00] we should consider using them. Yeah.
And being queer is the best and the community is so fun and maybe you’ll get invited to things that you wouldn’t have otherwise been invited to.
Shout out to the queer bars and organizations in Toronto and everywhere.
Well, thank you, Mandy. Thank you so much. Um, I mean, maybe we’ll end up doing another episode on bisexuality, bi visibility. Who knows? Because we do want to contribute to, to this. Maybe this is the first of a series. We’ll see.
I
Thank you for listening to another episode of Dear Queer. We’ll see you again in two weeks. Thanks.
Bye bye!
Good. . She had to do it.
This has been another episode of Dear Queer. Just a reminder, we are not actually experts. Any advice given should actually come from our experts who we will bring in from time to time.
Music brought to you by Sean Patrick Brennan, produced by myself, Lauren Hogarth, and your host as always, Alena Papayanis I’m cutting that