Guilt & Shame with Dillon Katrycz

[00:00:00] it’s usually pretty easy to recognize when we’re experiencing guilt because it’s able to be held in conscious awareness without agonizing. With shame, on the other hand, our brains can really come up with all sorts of ways to keep the conscious experience of shame at bay since it is so overwhelming, so threatening.

Growing up in an Orthodox Catholic household, church, and school system, guilt and shame came very easily to me. They were in fact one and the same thing to me back then.

But researcher and storyteller Brene Brown tells us that the distinction is an important one. Guilt is feeling like something we’ve done is bad, whereas shame is feeling like we are bad. In other words, guilt focuses on behavior, whereas shame focuses on the self.

And today we’re going to talk about both, and we have our expert, Dylan Katrycz, on the episode to weigh in on the topic.

Well, shall we dive into it?

Yeah,

Welcome back to the podcast, Dylan. It is so, so lovely to have you back again. And today we’re talking about guilt and shame.

Not the most, you know, flowery, positive

topics,

but really important ones, we think

I made I

think it made my cheeks go red just saying

Yeah, it. did! Yeah, I just got a

little

bashful

I’m like, Oh, what do I feel It has that effect on people.

yeah.

So we’ve got a few questions for you, um, but I’m sure we’ll sort of build it into conversation as we go as well. Uh, but the first one is about the distinction between guilt and shame, and this [00:02:00] is something growing up I didn’t understand.

I just. felt it, you know, and I grew up in a, a conservative Orthodox Catholic school and household and church. And, uh, and so the guilt and the shame was laid pretty thick, you know, um, on me and, uh, but I know the distinction is important and I’ve only learned that as an adult, like this difference between guilt being something that we, uh, you know, feeling bad about something we’ve done, whereas shame is something more about who we are and like us ourselves being bad.

Um, do you see people not knowing the

distinction

often like coming to you and

thinking maybe they’re feeling guilt, but what they’re actually feeling is

shame?

Yeah. You know, in my practice, it’s rare that a client will come in with the of working on their shame. More often the shame kind of emerges in more indirect ways over the course of the therapy. Um, I find that it’s more likely to be felt

than named.

Um, but you absolutely have the distinction

right as far as

uh, I’m

concerned. So guilt being

a kind of thought process about something you’ve done.

Um, whereas shame is more of a embodied, affective, like, existential cringe. Um, that is more about who you are as a person than any sort of particular action

you’ve done.

It’s so, visceral. It’s,

I kind of feel like you, you know it when you feel it. It’s that

thing that

just washes over you and you’re like, uh oh.

Yeah.

Yeah.

like a flush of heat. So

Yeah.

that

washing over sensation, you

know, increased heart rate, kind of, know, fight, flight,

[00:04:00] or freeze response. Like, it’s really dysregulating to our nervous systems. Not fun.

Mm

feels like making yourself small, but I wonder if, and so maybe that’s more, maybe that means my response would be more of a, of a fright or a freeze,

hmm. Mm hmm.

but do,

is there that opposite? Is there a fight response to

shame

too? Like, is that when people get defensive

and like the lashing out or something? I’d never even really thought about that.

Um, have you seen, Yeah.

I mean the shame is a threat to the self, right? And we all respond to threats in different ways. Some of us recede, you know, some of us are paralyzed, some of us lash out,

um, and I think all of

those can have shame underneath them. So people have very, and it, you know, it’s all

contextual, but um, yeah, there’s a, that’s a difference for sure.

Is there I mean, most of these types of things are, are rooted in some sort of survival and, um, you know, move, move, To help us move through the world like what is the what is the benefit

of you know, I it’s like you want to disappear And yeah, I think my face goes red that kind of thing and i’m like gosh that just calls more attention

to me

Like what what is the value of this experience of shame?

Uh, like culturally personally.

Yeah. So, we can actually think of shame in terms of adaptive and maladaptive shame. So, um, you know, in the kind of origin story of shame is there some kind of relational rupture, um, where there’s, you know, some kind of lesson that there’s something deeply wrong with ourselves. So, [00:06:00] Um, and you know, when that is repaired, so for example, like a caregiver, um, is attuned to their child and senses that something is up and is able to address it with them and, you know, reassure them that, um, there is nothing wrong with them or that, you know, this part of themselves or this thing that they did is not, um, aberrant or like appalling or disgusting, you know.

Um, in absence of that, we do tend to see. make those kinds of meanings of those situations, and it becomes something that we try and avoid at all costs. So when we talk about shame in adulthood, it’s actually often like the response to shame that we’re talking about, rather than the shame itself, if that makes sense. Um, yeah, so

Yeah, I hope that makes sense. I know

it’s a

bit

like,

but that got me thinking, so if we say shame there being like an

adaptive version and a

maladaptive,

are we saying that there is healthy shame?

It’s interesting. It kind of gets semantic,

Yeah, so I was thinking about, I, cause I never thought that there might be like, healthy, well, you know, this healthy shame, or I guess a healthy amount of shame maybe I’ve, I’ve considered. But this idea of there being, a purposeful, healthy shame versus a maladaptive, unhealthy shame. And I’m wondering if there’s been some maybe, like, bringing it back to Lauren’s point about this, us as humans, like, why do we feel this?

What’s the purpose of this? And so much of our most primal things come down to social bonding and, and like, uh, you know, keeping us

humans together in some

way, shape, or form.

social

contract is

Yeah,

feel embarrassed or ashamed. Like,

I think embarrassment and shame are

kind

of in the, in the, same family.

And it’s like,

you

know, we [00:08:00] don’t ourselves to children. That would be something you should be very

Yeah, no, and that’s a perfect example of how, like, yes, shame, I think, has a primarily social function, right? it people

in more or

less.

, so it has a benefit to the collective, if

we’re speaking, like, evolutionarily.

I think the problem is that it can be so damaging to the self when it’s experienced in an extreme way.

So, you know, um, someone who is, like, locked in their bedroom for most of their life, like, is not really going to cause much of a problem to the collective, right? But, like, if they’re locked in there because of their shame, the individual aspect of their life is, you know, really hurting. So yeah, there definitely is an evolutionary kind of group function. Is there such thing as good shame? I mean, this is where it really gets into just like, you know, we use words to try and describe these experiences because I think that’s where, you know, at least, um, at this day and age, people make the distinction between guilt

and shame, right?

So, being able to acknowledge

that you’ve done something that has maybe harmed someone else, you know, in a tolerable

way. we could maybe consider that good shame, or maybe we call it guilt. Um, I think, you know,

if someone is feeling

mortified by

something they have done, and they are

not reassured in some kind of way, or there’s no kind of repair with the

person that they feel that they’re worried they’ve hurt, um, that’s when it becomes the seed of something different, and something more kind of toxic and insidious.

So, I think good shame is shame that gets addressed in the moment. Um, if, yeah, [00:10:00] if

I can make that distinction.

gets addressed in the moment. Um, if, uh,

yeah, if I can make that

distinction. attitudes about themselves or their behaviours. Like, maybe some of the more problematic

ones that, that people

should be aware of.

Yeah,

Oh, I was going to say too, if, if we could kind of anchor it in queerness, because I think that’s something a lot of our

listeners will resonate and have, have likely gone on that, uh, journey themselves.

for sure. So, I mean just quickly to address guilt it’s usually pretty easy to recognize when we’re experiencing guilt because it’s able to be held in conscious awareness without agonizing. With shame, on the other hand, our brains can really come up with all sorts of ways to keep the conscious experience of shame at bay since it is so overwhelming, so threatening.

Our brains are really good at that. So, uh, someone might have a keen enough sense of self awareness to recognize when they’re experiencing shame, but for most, especially those who haven’t worked with their shame on their own or in therapy, shame is more often veiled under other conscious thoughts and feelings because it cannot be tolerated or integrated yet.

It cannot be seen or touched. kind of maladaptive shame, as I was saying earlier, um, often leads to withdrawal and avoidance in people, Also, potentially to treating yourself or others meanly or harshly. Um, sometimes experiences of procrastination and perfectionism or people pleasing can have shame at their core.

You know, our desperate need to be good,

either fueling us into action or paralyzing us in fear and anxiety.

Uh, but always trying. and usually [00:12:00] failing, hence the maladaptive part, to keep out of awareness some sense of self contempt or worthlessness. So, you know, for those of your listeners who heard the people pleasing episode, and, you know, we were talking about the connection between queerness and people pleasing, and, you know, these early lessons of which parts of ourselves are safe to show and which are not, um, you know, Shame so often accompanies those kinds of, um, self censorships, right?

Um, there’s, you know, we, we, we learn that others see some part of ourselves as invalid, disgusting, etc. Um, And so we take that on and that can absolutely be a seed of shame that we experience for, you know, some amount of the rest of our lives. Um, so, you know, in as much as queer people are told that they shouldn’t exist, you know, there’s, that’s just, the grounds are fertile for shame to develop.

Yeah, I think, I think when you were,

Talking about how, like, we can lash out and those types of things that, that saying hurt people hurt people Uh huh. flashing in my brain and it, I always try and remember that when I see, especially friends and, and, and loved ones lashing out and it’s like, oh, this is actually, um,

they’re, giving me a message that there’s something else going

on here, and like, I should try and look

into that and create space that other thing that is happening.

Yeah, absolutely. There, there, there’s someone coming to

mind in my life who shall not

be named.

Um,

Yeah.

but. you. know, with this person, like,

There’s just [00:14:00] really a kind of low threshold for kind of like,

um, accepting blame or like admitting wrongdoing or, you know, hearing critique, um, any of those kinds of things and, uh, you know, my suspicion is that what is being protected and what is being kind of staved off is this shame experience, right?

Because it’s not just, Oh, I’m sorry I did that. I was wrong to do that. I won’t do that again, right? That would be guilt. It’s, I would never do that. That was not my intention, you know? Like, I’m a good person. Like, what are you, what are you accusing me of? You know, like it’s so much, the stakes are so much higher.

Um, so I think, you know, lashing out is awesome. Often someone trying to protect themselves from a shame experience. Not always.

Um, but certainly

makes it worse. ,,isn’t it like so funny that the thing we

do

to try and protect ourselves, like the digging in and the like

indignity. The

indignity. Sure. Uh, yeah.

it’s it’s fascinating

I’m gonna dig in on that word.

It sounded great

though.

Is like, yeah, it’s usually has the

opposite effect, but it’s like you can get so

blinded by these emotions and feelings.

It’s uh, yeah. It

can

be really powerful. Um, I have a listener question that’s kind of in this vein, are you down to take a swing at one?

yeah sure

Cool. Uh, hi dear queer, I’m bi and as far as my family was concerned was only in straight presenting relationships. I am now dating a man and found myself coming out to them.

What is a good way to handle a family member who is still trying to

make me feel shame after coming out?

so this is a guy who was Uh, only dating women and is now

also dating, or started to date a guy,

uh,

openly.

 So it sounds like, you know, out to friends and all of that,

uh, but haven’t had to come out to [00:16:00] their family

because all of their past relationships were, um, straight presenting.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oof. I mean, that’s

so hard. That

is like, you know, the family should be the people who kind of support us

unconditionally, and unfortunately we know, that it’s so often not the

case. You know, I think, I think first is just a question of safety. Like, if safety is in question, like, you do not have to subject yourself to being around this person.

That’s You know, that’s a boundary. That’s a hard line. Um, if it’s not necessarily about safety in the classic sense, um, then, you know, you certainly have some decisions to make and some conversations to have potentially with other trusted family members. Um, you know, it’s, I just don’t think that anyone should have to endure, um, so much.

like insult and aggression for the sake of obligation to family. Um, you know, that’s, that’s not an experience of family that I wish for anyone and Yeah, so I mean, it’s, it’s tough. It’s like, how close, you know, how ingrained is this person in the family? Like, when you go to your family home, is this person there? Is it more for like, holidays, get togethers? , can this person be avoided? Do other people in your family agree with this person? Or do they actually disagree or side with you?

But, you know, are they willing to be vocal? Are they willing to be your ally in the group? Hopefully, yes, maybe those are conversations that could be had with some trusted family members.

 Ultimately,

can’t change other people. Try as we might. If you have the capacity, you can try and educate.

You can try and put your time and energy into, you know, gently informing this [00:18:00] person, or just demonstrating to them that things are not, you know, As they see them, um, but that’s not your job, that’s not your responsibility, that’s something that you can choose to do, but, you know, you also have the right to protect your own psychic space and peace and well being, so,

however

you want to balance those

things.

Yeah, I was just gonna say, that makes me think, that’s a great point that, you know, you can’t necessarily control what they do, we can’t control what anyone else does, but I do wonder if there’s just that internal element where it’s like, recognizing that that’s, that person expressing this desire for you to feel shame, that’s their shame talking, you know what I mean?

Like,

so this

kind of internal refusal to feel it, to be like, this is yours? I don’t know. I’m not gonna take this on as my own, like,

I don’t actually feel that way about myself so you can go ahead and feel that if you want, but like,

I’m not gonna carry that, I’m not gonna let that seep into my own sense of self, you know, which isn’t easy, and it takes time, but,

but, I don’t know, there’s like a level of separation

to make, you know,

I’m really glad. Sorry. Go

ahead

sorry, I was gonna say it’s true, too, because this person, you know, if they’ve been in straight presenting relationships in the past, so this sounds like it’s new information for this family member. So that family member’s idea

of who

their

family member is has had an abrupt change, you know, one that, you know, this company probably thinks is a no big deal, but in other circles, we know that’s not the case.

And so I, it made me think about, you know, sometimes these things take time and people have to kind of rewrite those pathways. And, um, yeah, you, you can also listen to our boundaries

episode and, people can come [00:20:00] back to you and you could, when they’re

ready.

If they do feel, if this person does feel , comfortable, enough to say, You know, these kinds of comments aren’t welcome.

I

want to spend time with you, but I’m not going to if these kinds of comments continue when I’m around,

you know?

But again, easier said than done, and it’s, you can’t just

necessarily one day just do that if you’re not used to doing

Exactly, and you can change your mind at

any

time in terms

of what your

approach is But you

know, that’s such a good point and I’m really glad you

said it about , other

people projecting their shame on to

us because you know,

not only can that be a good coping approach strategy for this person when they have to endure this stuff, right?

 Reminding oneself, like, oh wow, they are taking their suffering and pain and, like, throwing it at me. That’s kind of sad. Like, I have empathy for them. You know, maybe that takes a bit of the intensity out. Maybe that allows you to take things, I don’t know, less personally. Know, and,

it reminds me of, like, the classic kind of trope of, , the biggest

homophobes often, either being gay themselves or having some kind of insecurity around their own sexuality or gender presentation. Um,

yeah, it’s

So,

you

know, the vitriol that we experience from other people is often, you know, more

about themselves than it is about us.

Right. Uh, we have one last question here, is around this notion of being addicted to shame, like this kind of, uh, tendency just to go towards shame and , to feel badly about ourselves. And this was a really interesting concept when I came across it because I hadn’t thought of it. But, um, do you see this in your practice?

Do you,

is pretty, It sounds like a

terribly dangerous addiction in its own way.

it’s a really interesting idea and it’s one that I actually hadn’t encountered before so [00:22:00] It definitely gave me food for food for thought. I think shame can certainly like as I said before, you know, it can be at the core of a lot of experiences of Addiction, um, you know, where we numb ourselves out and self soothe with various kinds of consumption in order to keep the hurt of shame away.

Like, that’s certainly a phenomenon that many people experience. Um, it’s also another example of how, you know, shame likes to wear different disguises and is not usually experienced directly or consciously. Um, I’m not sure that I would say shame itself is an addiction, um, but shame and addiction both have a lot in common.

You know, they can be chronic, like frequent and ongoing, and not easily curbed. They’re insidious, so they, you know, seem to take on a life of their own within ourselves. And they affect the regulation of our nervous systems and interfere with our daily lives. So, I do think the distinctions are important, though I’m always open to having my mind changed, and I would be really interested to hear, you know, what a neuroscientist’s perspective on this would be, uh, just because, you know, So much, like, there are so many different behaviours and activities that, um, can be addiction but the common link is kind of like what happens in the brain, um, and what pathways are activated etc. So it would be

really interesting to get to see like

a comparative take on

wait, we got to ask our friend Mandy who is one. But that makes me think though, uh, you know, how you said shame is often couched in other things. We could even maybe look at perfectionism and people pleasing in some way as, as this kind of tendency or addiction towards shame, because the driving, and that factor is not feeling worthy enough.

So you’re like, this has to be perfect.

I have to please this person. I have

to become this person, and then I’ll be loved. Or then I’ll be

this. So in some way there’s, there’s kind of like a

shame thing going on

[00:24:00] in it, in those cycles.

yeah. You know, they’re both

cycles, that’s for sure. I just wonder about you know, with addiction I

think about seeking and reward, um, and that being the kind of main, uh, dynamic of that cycle. And I’m not sure that quite applies to shame, but there

certainly is something cyclical

going

Yeah, that’s an important distinction, that’s true, because the, the function, like

you said, is different, or the purpose or

reward, that’s, that’s a good distinction.

Would we be remiss if we

didn’t talk about the link between shame and, um, sexuality and, , preferences. Like, often it comes up in,

um, I guess, the

bedroom.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like, that could, that can be a big part of how people, uh, explore their own sexuality and preferences and, and things like that. Like, those, those seem, you know, big Dan Savage,

uh, listener, and

that seems to come up a lot in his episodes.

Yeah, because I

guess

internalized homophobia is a shame

Yeah, and then it often informs kinks or, like, different things like that. Yeah.

Right.

And that’s where, you know, like kink and BDSM cool to think about

because in a similar way to

like, you know, how we can reclaim, um, pejoratives and words that are used against us, , we can also potentially reclaim experience.

Um, and, you

know, it, the question is around like agency and, um, freedom and,

going on in the dynamic of your connection with the

other person or

people that makes it maybe a safe

place for play and exploration versus just a re experiencing I mean,

that’s, Yeah. that’s one perspective.

That’s, yeah, it’s such a powerful thing for people to, I [00:26:00] love that you said that about reclaiming it and, um, what, what that can be for, for individuals who, you know,

historically or previously felt a lot of guilt or shame around who they

are and who they love and that they can then turn that into a positive is, is really

Mm

Yeah. And

I should say, you know, that can be one person’s experience

of BDSM, but not

everyone’s.

Yeah, that’s true. Good, good caveat.

Yeah, not, not an expert. Well, so

much

Well, thank you, thank you so

much for helping us out with

uh, with guilt and shame and

all the various distinctions and

nuances.

Uh, this

was

Very welcome.

 welcoming

 This has been another episode of Dear Queer. Just a reminder, we are not actually experts. Any advice given should actually come from our experts who we will bring in from time to time.

Music brought to you by Sean Patrick Brennan, produced by myself, Lauren Hogarth, and your host as always, Alena Papayanis I’m cutting