Reality Bites

 [00:00:00] and then I was like, I need to know the exact moment. Like, I need to know all the clues and then the moment that Kyle realized she was queer, because I am convinced it happened later in life.

​

What’s the

guilty pleasure that everyone loves to

watch, but nobody wants to admit? Which shows can you consume mindlessly, but at the same time feel deeply

invested

in?

The

obvious answer is reality television.

The semi scripted, quasi real, booze fueled, heteronormative junk.

We hate to love. And

that’s our topic for today on Dear Queer.

Welcome,

 we have some serious VIPs in the room today.

Thank you for having

us!

Woo!

Um, you

may have heard about them, uh, I don’t have an intro for this, but we we were just gonna riff it. Uh, so today we have our podcast champions and part of the reason that we started this podcast, we have Hailey and my fiance Dev. Hi. Hi

Hi. Hi.

We

often

talk about reality

TV together, so this is for listeners to know why this is like a natural, these are natural

people to include, natural conversation

to have, because we have them anyways on our group chat.

we just thought

we would actually have it on camera and using

do y’all want to introduce yourselves? Sure, My name’s Hailey,

Haley,

Sure, um, hi, my name’s Hailey. Uh, pronouns she, her. Um, and I am an [00:02:00] unabashed reality TV fan.

I’m not ashamed to say it.

Hi,

I’m

Dev, otherwise known as Lauren’s fiancé she, they, uh, okay, so I’ve, I have an interesting journey with reality, which is that I have always like, you know, tiptoed around it, watched it here and there, had a little moment with it and walked away. But then when I met Lauren, uh, I became a full fledged addict and I might even have surpassed Lauren’s love for reality TV in the last little

while.

it’s definitely possible. I, I see you going back in the archives of Housewives.

I am deep in the coffers of Housewives,

So, so we have the shows that we watch together and in theory, you know, you’re not supposed to watch ahead. And then we have the shows that we also soloed, soloed Journey.

That’s

amazing.

I think that was actually one of the origins of our friendship was reality TV as well.

Yeah, you were not a fan. You didn’t really watch. You said you were maybe just dabbling, but we watched a season of Are You The One? I don’t know if anyone

Oh, I do. That was a good show.

it was the one and only. Season of queer are

Oh yeah, yeah,

Dev and I really bonded over that being two baby queers in Toronto Yeah, that was a part of our origin friendship

story.

Shout out to Kai. I hope you’re hope you’re around Kai I hope you’ve stumbled upon dear queer

Um, you’re actually kind of

we’re actually kind of giving Kai a connection.

We

show back. Do they, is it still going? I

think there will this episode of Dear Queer, will be

no,

that this episode of Dear Queer, will be no,

um, inside scoop, probably spoilers and, uh, yeah, we are not, not prepared.

Where should we start?

We’re [00:04:00] currently in a bit of a love is blind world. Um, the, what is, are we the third season?

Sixth, I think.

Yeah. have you been,

Lauren?

Okay. I’ve only, I’m only on my third th okay.

It’s the sixth season, but they have yet to give us lesbians in the pods or tops and bottoms. And that’s all I need. That’s literally, I’m a simple, simple guy. I just want tops and bottoms in the pods.

was thinking they should do a love is blind and pan.

Yes,

And

it be, you could date blind or you could date within whoever, whomever you’re staying with, like just see who you hit it off with.

And there’s been a couple examples in reality TV history where that has happened, but not full season. I think we need like the commitment to the full season, like, um, the bachelor or was it the bachelorette Australia? There’s an example of two of the contestants fell in love and I think dated for a while after, um, two women and a recent Love Island.

Oh!

I think one of the offshoots of Love Island, um, was the first time ever that a woman chose a woman to couple up with and that was a big

thing. Oh, and also who’s that chick who’s trying to get pregnant with her partner? And, what’s her name?

Francesca! Oh!

remember. What show was she originally

was on a

few of them.

She was, she’s been like around the reality TV block, but she is on an IVF journey that I am absolutely glued to, um, sending her all the baby wishes, but she was also like a bisexual queen on a bunch of different shows and so casual and chill about it.

Like it wasn’t like, like a big thing. She was just like, I am who I am, whatever.

You’re right, that was a net also she was on a recent Netflix show, so Netflix has it in them.

them. Yeah, well we’re all waiting on Mal from, uh, Queer Ultimatum to bring us the next season.

Please, please, please, please.

I love Mel. Lauren, for um, a random

Gift,

I guess, um, got a cameo [00:06:00] for me from Mal, um, when I was having, like, a weird time dealing with, I guess, gender dysphoria in clothes and, like, dealing with understanding how to, like, orient myself within clothes that I’ve had that haven’t served me anymore and clothes that I, like, hate.

I wanted to kind of get in, like, get more, um, into and explore, and Mal sent me this cameo, courtesy of Lauren, that was basically just a pump up speech for when I get ready, um, and was talking about, yeah, gender euphoria and gender dysphoria and, like, what it means for them to just, like, be fully in their femininity and their masculinity, and I love it.

They’re the sweetest human being.

so good.

Shout

out to Mal.

well,

the question is, do we, do we want to dive into current love is blind? We’re recording this it’s February 28th, but the podcast probably won’t come out till a week from today. Um, so we are in the throes of family meetings. There’s just some gossip.

Uh, Jeremy has just been caught,

Jeremy. hung up with

Laura. Laura catches that.

That’s Jeremy.

It was Jeremy. I think

it’s Jeremy, and he was in the parking lot, but really he was like all night with that

chick.

the car, but he kept his watch on him when he

went to

Okay, Hayley has the tea.

scoop.

Scoop alert.

Those

two though, even before I knew that.

But I could tell there was

too much,

they’re both,

there’s

too much of a like a hard crust. And you could just tell like, they liked that they could kind of, you know, meet each other. But there, that needs to come from, there needs to be a warmth there still, but they’re still kind of just like. Throwing daggers at each other and you can just tell it’s like just gets bitter fast and like resentful and animosity comes through It’s not like a

fun

thing,

you know [00:08:00]

I don’t know for for y’all, but for me, when, um, Brittany, I’m going with Brittany. I think it’s Brittany. Is that her name?

Laura.

britney’s another one?

Oh, shoot.

I know

I never remember their names.

Okay.

Well, when Jeremy’s fiancé, It starts ragging on his dang Hawaiian shirts. I’m like, this gal does not like him. There is like a undercurrent of just, I don’t like him. I’m gonna change him. I’m a theme theme of the season.

Especially

right after when she does meet the family, or her, I can’t remember if it’s her family, is her family there.

I don’t want to give away anything, but basically she’s like, I made this whole pros and cons list and

the pros list

was so huge. And we had the same

values and we, you know, love, like the same things and all the big things were important.

And then I looked at the

cons list and there were a few

things. And one of them was a Hawaiian shirts. And

so I’m like, okay, this

really isn’t a big deal.

All the big stuff aligns.

And then like, you know, Two scenes later, she’s ripping on his Hawaiian shirts to her sister or

something

again. So, like, man, let it go or don’t be with him.

I

mean,

I don’t know, like the thing with Love is Blind is that it’s like straight Love is Blind, which is why I would be like so fascinated in queer Love

is

Blind of any format, is that you have a bunch of dudes who have never once in their entire life been asked to like emotionally connect, be vulnerable, not have physical connection, and so they’re like, holy moly.

Like, things are wild, I’m falling in love. Then you have a bunch of women, straight women, who for most of their relationships probably have never been listened to. And so then they’re like, oh my gosh, people care, and are listening to me. And like, this is wild, and I’m falling in love. But like, they literally don’t talk about anything.

They talk, like, they, if you listen, really, like we saw a meme the other day, and they’re just talking about like, oh my god, I love dogs. Oh my god, I love dogs too! And it’s like, There’s [00:10:00] nothing substantive, like the glimmers of like, like, if I’m black, will you hate that? No. Cool. Amazing. Moving on. Like, what are your political beliefs?

Well, I’m a Republican. I hate abortion. Okay, cool. Moving on. Like, it’s so surface level.

Do you think that’s the edit or just surface

No, I think that’s They’re just swooning and then talking in circles and then they get into the real world and they’re like shook that they

Don’t have much in

because they were like looking for confirmation of the connection.

They’re thinking they have and so they’re like dogs, this, that. Yes. Yes. And that it confirms what

they’re

wanting, which is a connection.

I think also These shows are totally layered with the fundamental premise that marriage is the be all end all That that is what people want and they say the contestants say it themselves. They want marriage More than anything, they want to be married, they want to be a wife or a husband, and I think that going in with that perspective totally changes the conversation.

They’re looking for that confirmation that they could marry someone, not that they are fulfilled by that person or could have a sustained, meaningful relationship outside of the pods. But they want the wedding. They want the ring. They want that heteronormative image.

The goal isn’t, like, finding a compatible person or

someone that you can build and grow and nurture and, like, evolve with. It kills

It kills me when they’re like 25.

too. Yeah.

And they’re saying all this shit and you’re like, you don’t know stuff yet.

There’s so

much you don’t know. Like,

I mean, not to bring in another show, but adjacent and similar is The Bachelor, which Hayley and Lauren and I are also deep into, and we’ve convinced Alana prior to the pod that we’re gonna, we’re gonna get all on board.

Um, but it’s the same thing in The Bachelor. Like, the terror that drives their, the terror and anxiety that drives their conversations is the fact that The Joey, the bachelor, does not want to leave without [00:12:00] being married, like that is his, like it is his thing. He’s like, I will leave here with my wife. And that drives his like every anxiety, like anytime there’s conflict, he’s like, but I have to leave here with my wife.

And all of the women are like, I am desperate. to be married to this man. And it’s like, you’re having such a, like, the, I don’t know, it’s just like so interesting. I think, like, a queer version of The Bachelor or a queer version of Love is Blind would change, I think a lot of it would change, like, the, the dynamic would shift considerably because I don’t know if, like, the end game is the same, but also maybe they’d just find a bunch of heteronormative gays and they’d all be like, We have to be gay.

True. like, maybe it would just be actually the same thing, but like, sub in queers.

don’t know. I

mean the speed of, Love is blind is pretty gay. It’s like

Where are you,

Haul warp speed levels we’re talking, but what I think is missing from the show are like time stamps. So the day that someone says that they love the other person, I want to know how many days have gone by

since

met. I want to see four days in the corner, in the left hand corner of that screen. And when they propose, I want to see day

six. Like, I

want to see that. I want to see that because we have no sense of how much time has gone by and that would Kind of give you a sense of perspective for how ridiculous it is that they

are

admitting these things

so quickly

Or, okay, yes on the days, but also maybe on the hours, because there is

there is something

how minutes of How long

many minutes? Because I do think that there’s maybe something, maybe this is just like the romantic in me, but like, there’s something about spending a lot of concentrated time with someone that’s uninterrupted and all you’re doing is talking and connecting, and Yeah,

Yeah, so like how many hours they’ve spent

dating.

That’s

true.

Like minutes minutes together in the

Yeah, yeah. 20th hour of

dates or something.

it’s

reasonable. Yeah.

[00:14:00] reasonable. Yeah. Spoiler alert, uh, Hailey is deep in the throes of a, what I can only imagine is going to be a U Haul

mean, as

I mean, as you were saying that the conversations about puppies is, uh, is baseless.

I was like, I mean, I don’t think you’d want to listen into like my conversations.

It’s just, I

I mean, it’s funny because I feel like when you, you haul, the thing is, is that you have a short number of days, but a considerable chunk of hours. So what you’re saying is really that, you know, the feeling of it. And I think it’s the same, like for like Lauren and I were talking about how.

If we had been in pods together without having ever met each other, but like talked for eight hours a day for two weeks, I would have married Lauren at the

end of the

two weeks.

Because I just, like, I know that in eight hours a day for two weeks I would have known. And so it’s

like,,

I think we all are able to look at this experience and be like those fools.

But also I have no idea consequentially how much time, but they are, I just don’t know what they’re

talking

about. And also, I think what’s fascinating about these reality TV shows and something that the producers or creators have picked up on is they take away their phones, they put them all in a house together.

They, like, they’re asked to do these interviews where they just are asked all these probing questions and talk about it, and talk about it. It is more than a full time job at that point and it’s like they’re creating. Yeah, it’s it’s fascinating

Do

I guess here’s a question. Do you think that you can See? I have to say that on this Love is Blind

I mean, I have to say that on this Love Blind season, I do really like Amy, and what’s his

name? Jimmy? Johnny?

I

hair. I,

He does worry me a little. I, feel

like he’s got a little bit of intensity that I’m not sure

which way it’s going to go.

Um,

but

you can, [00:16:00] there’s a like sweetness about it that

seems

genuine,

at least

from her.

You know what I mean?

I don’t know, there’s something about like love and chemistry and connection that I think is just felt between two people and isn’t always visible to even sometimes the people around them, but definitely to viewers on an edited show.

Um, and so sometimes I, I think about that like. how that translates onto, onto screen or not. And like part of the fun of watching reality TV is the kind of game of it as the viewer and trying to guess who are they going to pick? Who are they going to end up with? Who are they going to choose? Um, but I don’t know.

There’s, there’s parts of love that’s like not rational like that. It’s not the

not the focus.

because part of it is really just the commitment to

Finding someone to, like, if they’re both in it

at a place where, like, I am ready for love, I’m ready for a person I’m compatible with, and they’re both committing

to that as, like,

a long term

project,

then it isn’t so

kind of, you know,

wishy washy as the kind of ephemeral, like, abstract, ooh, I want to be in love, but it’s like, oh, this is someone I could build this life with.

Then that does feel, because that’s more

like, Love as work, which is part of it, too, right? I

think you can see it more in shows where you see couples over years. So I think like reality shows where you watch couples over multiple seasons and watch the way that they interact in like daily life and then watch the progression of their relationships.

Um, i. e. my favorite show of all time, The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills. Um, my current obsession. , I think that like you can, I mean I started watching, , Real Housewives of Beverly Hills because, Kyle, uh, is famously, was, is, who knows, dating a lesbian, Morgan, who, uh, I just lived for that whole plot line in their lives.

Leave it to, uh, [00:18:00]

queers to just find the, like

tiniest threat. Oops. Sorry.

Did someone, is there, is there, is there a

queer on the

say gay?

Oh. I am now invested in going. back ten seasons to find the arc of this.

Well, that’s what I was going to say is the only reason I’m watching this and have become hooked is because I heard about Kyle and Morgan, I think from you, and then I was like, I need to know the exact moment. Like, I need to know all the clues and then the moment that Kyle realized she was queer, because I am convinced it happened later in life.

And so I wanted to like, go back and watch up until the point, but I think having watched too many seasons of this now, I really, starting from the beginning, can see that Kyle and her husband Mauricio really genuinely loved each other. Like, there was so much care and love in their relationship and watching their day to day interactions and how they handle trauma and their kids and like, all sorts of stuff you can like, see their love.

And then you see it fade. And like, it’s wild to like, watch these people’s lives.

Well, and she

also, like, got married. Was it pretty young? And just had like kids and kids and kids. Like, that was

very

got married, she had a first husband.

And

then had, I think, one kid? And then now she’s

Yeah, has been a mom or You know what I mean? Like, it

seems like that was the project she was committed to. And then now maybe it’s

actually realizing more about

herself as she’s The

kids are out of the

house and things are grown up, and

Yeah, I was

on the plane.

There

were some Real Housewives available of different

seasons that

I haven’t

seen. And I

did see a

glimmer of that one, but they didn’t

have that

many episodes, but I watched what I could. But I need to, I need to follow up. I’m, I’m on to this

now, too.

I

I think I’ll, I think that speaks to

though I,

, what’s so beautiful about reality tv, I think for a long time I, I have loved reality TV

for,

for, for years. Shout out to my original bachelor girlies in, uh, west Hollywood. I was brought into it initially because there’d be, a friend hang and a night out and a way to see your pals without going to a bar or [00:20:00] this or that or whatever.

And it was always kind of this like funny thing for me. And I was kind of embarrassed that I liked reality TV. But when you think about it You know, now I’m unabashed. I’m a reality evangelist almost because it’s like the way we watch it now It’s like yes, it still has that friends element, but we’ll pause it.

We’re dissecting what’s happening. We’re going like full Psychological breakdowns of like would you do that? How about this? Can you believe they did that? And there’s just so much more than even what’s perceived on the

shows

We’re bravopologists. Bravo

anthropologists. Yeah It’s just so easy to think we can because it just seems so obvious when it’s played

out that way and edited in certain Ways and sometimes you see yourself in people

or reactions

um,

And like,

you can see people’s insecurities.

I’m always fascinated at,

Well, especially in something like Love

is Blind, where the speed is so quick.

And

they’re basically forcing themselves to be vulnerable because

they know it’s required for a connection.

But

doing it before

really knowing a

person. So it’s all

too fast.

And

then, when they’re brought out into the

hotels

and wherever

they are,

Then, it’s like, then they’re thrown into, now it’s suddenly not safe anymore, because it’s not just the two

of them in a pod anymore.

And then they’re seeing exes, their number two picks, and the other people who still they’re crushing on are crushing on them. And then

suddenly,

all of their like attachment wounds and their fears come bubbling up because

suddenly They

were so vulnerable

and they made

this quick

connection and now it’s like immediately being challenged.

And then that’s when you see people’s

like avoidance or anxiousness and all sorts of things come out and I just find that

like, [00:22:00] avoidance, or anxiousness, and all sorts of things come out, and I just find that fascinating.

I don’t know if you can ever consent to that because like, I can’t imagine you would know what that is like unless you actually experience it,

you actually experience it. Oh, they have to consent to their edit being done in like, like they have no control. You are signing your rights away. I mean, shout out to those gold cups for like continuity, timing, and like, yeah, no, good luck.

I have a question for, just to toss at our, our new hosts. Uh, it’s going to be reality themed.

So Jeremy from Love is Blind proposed to Laura, , who we were talking about earlier, who basically went off and found Sarah Ann and had like a night out and is caught in that lie. If you are Laura, what are you doing? When he’s in there and you’ve seen his location data, are you lea she, she left the room, but I want to know what the, what are the queers doing in this instance?

I mean, I guess it depends on if I’ve had a conversation with the person about boundaries and openness within the relationship. That’s my diplomatic answer. But assuming that we are monogamous and we have agreed to monogamy, I’m out of there. That is disrespectful. That is sneaky behavior. I, after watching that, I said to Lauren, I was like.

If

If you ever were like out with friends and then you decided to like go meet up with your ex and hang out in a parking lot until four in the morning and I was asleep hoping for you to come home and then found out in the morning that not only did you share your location with me but then lie about where you were,

were.

like that would [00:24:00] be Like, I have no patience for that.

That’s like, like, sketchy, untrustworthy behavior. Even if you, even if Lauren didn’t do anything, even if nothing physical happened. Like, I refuse to ever be in a relationship at this point in my life where I have to, like, wonder what someone’s up to because they’re being deceitful. Like, uh uh, no way. But if we’re not monogamous, sure, great.

Yeah,

this reminds me of

what

Nick said on our episode about giving and taking in relationships, the idea of your partner considering you,

the notion of consideration,

and

that is a situation

where Jeremy

clearly did not

consider

Laura.

If he needed to have a conversation with Sarah, that’s something they could have arranged and said, Okay, we’ll have coffee one afternoon. Let me run it past Laura first, make sure she knows it’s going to happen, when it’s going to happen, where

it’s going to happen, so that

it’s all upfront.

Yeah, I think he was avoiding a tough

conversation, that

doesn’t Um, that doesn’t fly. I think in doing that you end up hurting your partner and I don’t think I could be with someone who would be afraid of having the hard conversation and in his case it was, I am unsure or I feel like I need to see this person and close that chapter. Um, and instead he just avoided it and then lied and yeah, and the, and both of them have the same

kind

of tactics

around conflict.

So it’s just gets quick to like, snappiness and neither of them are actually willing to kind of be vulnerable

and talk about

their feelings. It’s just

like, kind of like attack

defense, attack defense. And it’s just, it’s not pretty.

Also, maybe this isn’t fair because I don’t know Laura at all, and I don’t know what she, how she deals with hard situations, but it appears on the show as if she was almost happy to have had him do

Like,

Like, I don’t think she really liked him at all. So like maybe she liked him at the beginning, but I think like then it faded. So like, I don’t know, it didn’t strike, it striked me as like, um,

I

I knew it [00:26:00] reaction, not as like a genuine, pain, grief. Like, oh no, the thing I’ve loved is coming crashing down.

It struck me as like a, I knew he was

like, like, I knew

to Like, it confirmed what she already believed. Yeah.

Yeah,

Yeah, that’s a good

point. I never thought of that either, but when you mentioned that

does feel very accurate.

very accurate. It also felt painfully like it wasn’t the first time they were talking about

it.

Yeah.

Like,

that wasn’t the first convo. That was the first one we saw, but there were some things that happened before that.

Yeah.

Are there any other, um, standouts from this season that we want to talk

about?

Mullet, or

Okay, I

Mullet. . I,

I feel like we could like totally see who the love is. Blind characters would be if it were all queer. Like people, like I know I can like see the types and like how it would all work. I just like, I feel like you’d have.

 The wild, outgoing, like, triple Leo,

who’s

like, just like, like dripping in chains and who shows up and is just

like animal

eh, like, yeah, just like, so like, baby doll, like, what’s your vibe, like, and then you’d have like the lipstick lesbian, who like, I don’t know, you just, they’d, they’d cast,

you typecasting?

no, they would cast, like, the typical queer, Everything.

Like it would just be like that. Like every other queer show, queer reality show I’ve seen, it’s like this assembly of people that you would see at a bar. , there’s something like amazing about that. I don’t know. But I feel like, I feel like right now as queers we have to live with nuggets in like little areas.

One other

thing I wanted to

mention that

really is apparent in, in these shows is the kind of possessiveness

that happens, like that they, it just seems to be really common

in all these straight

relationships

that they’re representing,

where

like,

You can’t even

talk

to someone, you can’t

like, you can’t even

talk

to, if you’re a

man, you can’t

talk to another [00:28:00] woman.

because that is a

threat, like it’s fundamentally a threat.

And I always find that so weird. And I always find

also the kind of Um,

almost

almost

like

patronizing

setup there is where, where the woman kind of thinks that

the man can’t do anything and the man is dismissive of the

woman in other ways too.

I hate, it’s just, I hate

witnessing that because, but

it’s so typical.

This kind of like eye rolling kind

of mentality

towards

their partner.

No,

there’s A lot

more room, I think, in these shows for not just representation and diversity of the individuals, but of the relationship types

Yeah, exactly. a good and healthy relationship and a committed and long lasting relationship can look like, because we’re pretty scarce on that.

We definitely are hungry for some more relationship types, more queer representation, get the queers on the dating shows.

We’ve been analyzing them, the hetero ones, and I think we all know a thing or two from from years of watching the straights do it

wrong.

Should I go on a show and try and pretend to be straight and just to be straight and just infiltrate. We’re going to get in trouble for This This

just be like a honeypot, queer honeypot,

I would say, we’ve been talking about the love. Dating realm of reality shows. But there’s also something to be said for queer representation on the mainstream, if you want to call it that, reality shows.

Um, I, Lauren and I are both longtime Survivor fans, um, and I would just shout out Survivor as an example of queer representation just in the casting and how much better it makes the show. It’s just having that diversity of people and identities. Just makes for such interesting dynamics and relationships, and it really plays out well, especially in that kind of tribe based show.

So, like, yes to more queer reality dating shows, but also to, like, the competition shows.

Shout out, Yum Yum.

[00:30:00] Yeah,

cast Lauren in Survivor. Do it now.

That is the show I want to be on.

This is our first time kind of dipping into reality TV, so if our listeners want us to talk about all of our show obsessions and have these two amazing humans back, let us know.

 This has been another episode of Dear Queer. Just a reminder, we are not actually experts. Any advice given should actually come from our experts who we will bring in from time to time.

Music brought to you by Sean Patrick Brennan, produced by myself, Lauren Hogarth, and your host as always, Alena Papayanis I’m cutting that.